Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Then again the podcast of the Northeast Georgia History Center. My name is Leslie Jones and I'm the director of archives and curation. And today I am here with two of our amazing staff to talk about the De los Muertos or DEA's Dead. So let's introduce our two guests.

Hi, I'm Guada Rodriguez. I'm the media producer here at the History Center.

And I am Deanna Manciga. I am the program manager for Ginza Reeds.

So first I thought I would talk to you two a bit about the history of the day just because it's so interesting. So let's go back about 3000 years. Long time. So the Aztecs and the Nawa believed if someone passed away, they would go to Chiquana Mikhlan. Here, the spirit would face nine different challenges before reaching their final resting place at Miklan. It took four years for a spirit to get there. Could you imagine nine levels? What kind of challenges do you think they had? Because that just sounds crazy. Why would it take four years?

Well, I'm pretty sure there are challenges challenging your spirit, for sure. And you're going through a journey. I feel like there will be rivers involved, mountains involved, and some sort of pain. You're kind of like going through this bridge of not being mortal to another level of in. The Aztec culture is considered kind of like immortality in a way. It's another journey of its own. Okay, I'm going to rephrase that.

Okay.

It's not immortality. I can't use that word.

More like a spirituality. Maybe your spirit has to wander around and go through stages and maybe come to a peaceful time with it. And that could be when you reach your fourth level.

I definitely think that there were challenges in that journey and that you had the opportunity, if you were friends with an animal, for example, like a dog, and that was your companion, your life companion, it was common practice for the dog to be buried with the person and accompany them in their afterlife journey to meet those challenges with that person. And like I said, there would probably be water, rivers, obstacles for you to cross to pass those levels.

I honestly didn't think of physical levels. I don't know what I was thinking. Because if you're passed away, why would you have something physical? So I think that's where I got confused there. In the Aztec culture, loved ones would bring food, water and various supplies to the physical resting place. And that was the basis of a friendas. So I wanted to talk about a Friendus for a day of the dead. What kind of things do you remember from your childhood or stuff you do today?

When it comes to friendas, I think water, again, is very important to leave either your friend or the relative that has passed away in your life. Leave them water so that they are not thirsty during that journey because again, like you said, it's four years. It's a long journey and there are so many obstacles, but also their favorite food and drinks. In your experience.

My experience is a little bit different. When I was back in Mexico, we used to be seeing a friend as a religious practice. So I guess I'm not older generation, but maybe more of actually modern generation, because it's not with the intention of the four levels of where your spirit is. It was more like with the intention of that's the day when the people that you love, they come and visit you. They come for that one night. And of course, if your grandpa is the one that is visiting you, you want to have everything that he loved because his spirit will come and visit you overnight and eat and enjoy the things that he used to when he was in life. Like, it's coming to see I don't know if this is appropriate to say, but it's coming to see tequila, mescal pan de muerto mole arose de leche. You can even see tacos if you want to. And these things are like you do an offering at your house and then you also on the day of the death, you go to the cemetery and take the same things to the tomb of that person that it was gone, but will come and visit you that day. So for my experience, when I was little, that's what it was. You make an offering for them to come and visit you and spend that one night overnight in harmony with you, with the people that they left behind. That's our job, the people that is behind to provide those things that they enjoy. And for the love of God, do not try to touch the food if you're a little kid, because your TIAs will get you la chunkla will get you la chunkla is like you will be reprehended, let's just put it that way. And for my experience, when I was little, it was more like that. I don't remember. I know the history of it because when I was older, I got to the history, but when it was at my house, it was never approached to this is what the Aztecs were doing. And I celebrate that. No, it was more like this is a religious practice. We believe that they come just like how the Aztecs believe, to take offerings to their gods. So if we go back in history, that's how it was. My experience, like we go I'm from this people that is believing in offering something good for the people that they love or the people that they believe in, right? And the Aztec passed. It was like they believed the gods provided everything, right? So they will take offerings to their gods, their gods. So within the religious practice of my house, it was like, well, grandpa's coming, your Diazo and so is coming. So it's very common to see different fruits or different foods within the same offering. Because you can have an altar for your grandpa, your cousin, your best friend's, best friend, everybody's welcome, right? And then you can have an altar at your house with all of this full of fruit, full of things that they love, but also taking them to the cemetery, if that's possible, if they are where you are. I remember my aunts coming from other towns and in other states just for that one night to be with a family and to go to the cemetery.

That sounds nice.

Yes. And then, of course, my thea the commander in chief, she will have an altar at her house. But then also, when my other aunts came around, we will go to the cemetery on that night and we will all have and even though it sounds kind of like what are we doing at the cemetery? It was in a different perspective. It was like we are honoring the loved ones and we are spiritually. Spiritual. We're together in spirit. I don't know how to say it appropriate, but it was our spirits trying to join the person that is no longer here physically, but that night comes and visits us. Like it can be babies, it can be adults, it can be elderly people. That was my experience. And I promise you, if you try to eat something when you're little, I'm telling you for a reason. Your aunt will get you, your tia will get you. I know. I tried there rosco Leche for my grandpa and it didn't work out for me well.

So I actually was looking and it said that Day of the Dead is kind of three different celebrations or at midnight, one day is Dia de los Angelitos, and then the next day is Dia de los de Fuentos and eventos it's Dia de los Muertos. Did you celebrate all three? Or would you only celebrate the last one, the big one?

What I experienced growing up is it depends on what region you live in. I'm from Mexico and Mexico we did the older people and then we did de los Angelitos because there are babies and they were pure. They would just come in straight, in with their spirit and then go straight and go to heaven. Does it make sense? They are peers. That's the reason why they're called Angelitos little angels, right? But it's the same meaning. It's the same offering, the same. It involved lighting candles, putting the flower of sempasucci to guide them to where to come. Everything is the same. It's just you do something special for the babies, like their babies, they're straight up angels, right? So then you do something for them. And then we did elderly people too. But I do know that in the south, especially on Mexican south, and especially closer to Guatemala and all that, they do have three days and they have even a festival like on that region all the way at the bottom of Mexico. But it was not something that it was done within the part where I grew up in Mexico. So it definitely experienced more of whatever your region you're living in or the like. We do have local traditions, right? And they modify to your local community. Same thing here. And my community was just like, you can do them all at once. But for example, my thes love to do something special for the babies because of what I just said, the babies are pure, right? So then we did something for the babies. If there was babies in the family, they were not with us anymore. And then something for the elder people.

What about you, Guana? Did you celebrate three or did you kind of do all of them together?

I think it was more all of them together. So my family would usually we wouldn't do it together. My family was kind of dispersed for the most part. I grew up seeing the cousins of my dad and seeing them as my uncles. Not really my cousins. I would just call them Theo and Dia. So we would either get together as a family, have a meal, bring music, or we'd go to a place where we knew that an event was going to be hosted. And I grew up Catholic, so a ceremony was always involved. I don't actually recall my mom having an altar, to be honest. I grew up seeing my neighbors having those in their homes. But they were also from Mexico and they'd always have pictures of their relatives and they'd always keep a cup, a glass full of water and always have a candle lit for them. All day, every day, all day, all night.

Oh, wow.

Yes.

Very important to keep a candle lit because it's in a way enlightening them. Right. And you don't want to keep them in the darkness, especially not if they're coming to visit you. And I love that Deanna brought up the don't eat the food because it was such a serious thing. You could really get in trouble for know more. It was kind of scary too. The older people would scare me and so I would just keep hands off. But also another thing that Adiana reminded me of was what do you take with you when you go to the cemetery to visit the people that have passed away? And I had cousins that would oftentimes bring music. What we call like the region that my family is from, Mexico is the northern part. So Banda is really big there. It's really popular and it's pretty much very loud music. Drums forgot the other instrument, but there are no lyrics, really. It's just rhythm. Rhythm.

Think about school band, but with a country sound.

Yes, that sounds interesting.

And it's very loud, so there's no way that if you're a bit far, you can hear it. And I think that just kind of shows the passion. You want to be in that rhythm and kind of feel like that closure with your relative or friend who has passed away as much as you can.

I like that it's in a way to honor them and to keep their things that they like closer for them and how you make that possible. And you're the only one that can make it possible because you're the one that is left behind. Makes sense they come in to visit you, but what are you bringing to their spirit? Right? Because they're coming to you. So it's kind of like they made the effort. Yeah. I mean, hello. I don't know. I was on the other side. But they come and the goal is to be there to have their things that they like. Like how Wala says if they like banda, you have them banda. If they like the tequila, then you give them the tequila. If they like oranges, then you give them oranges. Things like that. So it's just more of a mix between religion, what you want to give to your family, like preference, definitely like the local culture influencing on it too. It's a big, huge puzzle that everybody plays. Like a little piece of it. It comes down to what you want to give, what are you willing to do or what you believe in. And like Walla was saying, sometimes people before that and before the afternoon, they will go and have a mass, right? And then all the family will go and things like that.

I think that also comes into the Spanish side of it and how they celebrated All Souls Day. And it's kind of a combination of the Spanish and the Aztec religion. Would you agree?

Absolutely. I definitely think it's a hybrid result of the blend and leaving two cultures during colonization times and how we as an Aztec community, we wanted to still hold on to our beliefs, but also they were taught other things. That also where some people completely adjusted to us. We know that they were forced during colonization, but then after colonization, they also kind of start believing in those things too. So that's the result of the two practices that they were doing. Right. Because when Catholicism was forced, they were still practicing their own rituals, even behind the Catholic Church back. So it's kind of like that idea of what happens when we mix two worlds. And definitely the hybrid result of the Spanish influence and the Spanish communion with definitely the indigenous people.

I thought something that was interesting that the Spanish did that I don't know if Mexico does, but they would bring the nicest linens they had and that was for them to take back with them after they visited you.

Well, we do certainly do I don't know in your case, but we do certainly, like I said, like an altar. I mean, everything has to be fresh. The best of the best clean, not touched by the kids, because the kids don't know, but the DS will inform them. The best flowers, like Waldo was saying for her, water was spirit. Like you had to have it in there. Like the candle has to be light up. It has to be within excellence. You're treating the spirit of your loved one. Does it make sense? So we do have within our culture papel picado, which is the figures that you make with yeah, I was going.

To talk to you guys about that.

It's like tissue paper.

Tissue paper. And then some families do it as a family. Some other people will buy them or whatever. But it's like do you make specific.

Shapes out of it or specific colors? Is there like a specific way to do it or is it just however your family does it?

I don't think there is a specific way. Yeah, I think it's just symbolic, really. And I think you just choose what you want to cut out. Again, I'm only speaking from my experience. From my experience and I never learned about a special way of cutting it. It just kind of symbolizes the tenderness that life is. It's very delicate, like the tissue paper, but also beautiful. It's beautiful.

It is really pretty whenever I see it.

Yes. I mean, it's one of the things that like you said, it staniars believe linen was like, I love picado. Like, I think it's beautiful. So it's whatever in the house. If you make an altar, the altar is spotless. And like I said before, and I'll keep saying the Diaz won't let you not be spotless. Right. So it's kind of like you give the best, just the best to that person. And if that person is the best for them is arosconleche, they will get the best arosconleche that UTIA will make just for them and they will keep it fresh. So it's like you offer the best you have and it's beautiful. And I don't know if you have done it or seen it in real life, but when you see one it's like, oh my God. All that you think is all about the work. But it went in through to that altar. I don't know if you saw your neighbors in Mexico. My aunts make them. They make the whole altar. It's quite a work. And you have to be creative too, because like Wallace said, you need to know where to put the picture, where to put the food, so that person knows that that's for them, the constant.

Maintenance is what is amazing to me.

They're also very rich in color.

If you rich in color I was going to say vibrant.

Yes, very vibrant.

Do the colors have certain meanings?

Not specifically. You see a lot of orange, but I think it's the fact that it's because the flora, the sampasuchi, is the one that is guiding the spirits, but it just happens to be not that I know of. I might be clueless, but what I know is that's the flower, the guides the spirits, and the flower is orange. And then papel picado has always been bright.

Yes.

And if you see all our colors, especially on my culture, Mexico, I mean, we just like, vibrant. If you see our folklore suits for folklore dances, they are vibrant. They're colorful. It's just life, I guess. Life.

Something I thought was really interesting is when I think of Day of the Dead just because of the stereotype with white people. American culture is that there was always parades, but what I was reading is that they didn't have parades for Day of the Dead in Mexico City until 2016.

I haven't been in Mexico for a day of the Death in a long time. But with my region, where I am from, we didn't have race at all. It was all more of a religious touch. It was more about, like I said, that meaningful communication with the spirit and more of a religion belief. I do know that in the south, and the only reason I keep mentioning the south is because I remember when I was little, I went to visit one of my friends in the south, like, borderline with Guatemala, and they did have the three days. So I happened to be for me, that I visited one of my best friends in Mexico to where she was visiting her grandma. And it was one of the three days which, of course, I was excused because I could still have time to go back to my family to celebrate on my real day, like the one day that we did. So then when I went, I experienced in her town, they were doing a parade. But I haven't been in Mexico, and I don't want to speak from without knowing for sure or giving misinforming people. I didn't have that knowledge. And I know in my hometown, we still don't have rates because if you're Catholic, it's more like the religious belief. Yeah.

It's not supposed to be a spectacle, right?

Yes, pretty much that's within my region. I'm from kind of like southwest, a little bit of Mexico. I'm from Guerrero. That's the state. And I do know that my region, our city, we still don't have rights.

So you're from the north and you're from the south.

How about things differently? Why that? Needed water. She better not touch that water.

So do you know why they started doing parades in Mexico? Because James Bond came out with a movie called Specter in 2015 where they had a parade in Mexico City for.

Day of the Dead.

So then they just started doing it. How crazy is that?

It's shocking that a movie would influence a whole event that has taken place way before the movie took place. And now it's changed the course of Day of the Dead in certain regions in Mexico.

Well, yeah, I'll have to do a little research in that. I don't mean we have seen changes and day of the death. That's one of them. Like you adapt through as you go within communities and we evolve. But I'm just not aware of anything, so I just don't want to mis educate people.

I would agree with you. Well, not agreeing, but just saying that the region that my family's from Mexico, there are also no parades that take place. It's also a very religious event and a very respectful event.

Yes.

Because these are people that lived once, right. So you're honoring the life that they had, but also the fact that they have passed on. It's not seen as a bad thing for them to be dead. And it's a celebration. I don't know if they do this in the region that you're from, but when someone passes away in Durango Durango, they will host what would look like a party for an outsider. So we'll have a big meal together, we'll bring music. It's a very social, lively event. But if you're an outsider, you might think that it's just a party. In a way, it is honoring the person who just passed away, honoring the life, their legacy, but also they're passing on onto this whole new journey and we want to celebrate that for them.

Well, it depends. I would say from where I am from, it usually comes down to what kind of faith do you have? Right. So if you are Catholic, it comes down to yes, you do have when you pass away, then you do have the Belacion. That's how it's called. And then they are honoring your body for like a whole night. Everybody takes away the whole night. Everybody gets dinner, everybody gets coffee and everybody shares things about you and your life and things like that. And then usually the next day they will stay all day going and in the afternoon they will bury the body. So to me, I guess it's according to the faith and the belief that you have grown especially for Catholic. That's what the beliefs are. Where I am from. It's called Bellas Elifundo. You kind of like mourn and celebrate and honor the person who passed away for overnight. And then you are there for the family to give them support. Like you push through the whole night and you are there for them and you are there to celebrate and honor. It's a very respectful way of seeing it.

It does sound like it, yes.

And then the next day you stay with the family and then you accompany the family, the whole family. The whole town is going to the cemetery oh, wow. To bury this person. If you Catholic, you might have a mass right before they're burying you. And then the whole town, the bells of the church, like they're going off, like the whole town is going with you through that moment. So it's kind of like that too. I don't see a parade coming soon for the Day of the Death to my towel. Call them old school or something, but that's what it is in my hometown. Of course, if not of a Catholic belief, that plays a completely different role. Right? Because it is more like a religious belief based off what your beliefs and traditions are within your family. Pretty much I was thinking because you.

Know how Cinco de Mayo is. That American, basically a white holiday, not a Mexican holiday. Do you feel any certain way about how Americans celebrate Day of the Dead and they're obsessed with sugar skulls but don't actually know anything about it? Or does it bother you?

I haven't really had a second thought about it, because to me, every person that is trying to celebrate something, usually what I find myself doing, it's more like educating that person. If I found a person that is I love people who wants to love my culture. And look, if they tell me, ola, that's it. You open the door for me to tell you about my culture. I love my culture. I'm proud of my culture in any meaning way. Like with Cinco de Mayo, when they told me it's my independence, I was like, Nope, let me teach you. Let me teach. Thank you for celebrating. But actually, that's rooted in the Chicano movement here in the United States.

Something a lot you do in your classroom, right?

Yes, I do that. Yes, a lot in my classrooms. And just to be clear, it is a holiday day in Mexico, and we do celebrate Cinco de Mayo, la Batad de Pueblo. It's a big thing. It's huge. However, it's just not our independence. That's the only thing. Just for the record and off track here, but if it happens with the India de los Muertos, I love, like, if somebody's trying to honor my culture or to be part of my culture, I love that part. And if they are trying to, they want to know. So basically, if they are not understanding it, or they are understanding different, my responsibility as a proud Mexican culture person is, oh, I feel that way, that it's just to tell people, well, it's great that you're doing it this way, but let me tell you how we do it. Does that make sense? Because we don't know until we know. It doesn't bother me, actually. Kind of like, I feel honored that they want to be part of something. And if they want to be part of something, I would love for them to be part of something, like they knowing about it.

I do always appreciate that with you. I ask you so many questions, but you're always so nice about it, and you always want to help out. Well, like Hamika. I'm obsessed with Hamika. Diane even brought me some.

Oh, that's yeah.

Well, you should talk to Wala about Atoles and the role that they play in their friend. But I'm just like saying no. I mean, I just think it's awesome when somebody's open to celebrate and to honor something else. And that's a good start. That's where people start. Like when I came here, I didn't know nothing about our culture in here, in the community. Right.

Didn't you say something about how Santa was just so weird to you?

Absolutely.

Just seeing a fat old see?

Yeah, we go back again. I didn't celebrate Christmas that way, but I was taught and now I understand it and I get it and it's wonderful. Now we have two things to celebrate, right. But if someone is willing to honor my culture, to be part of the culture, it's amazing. And I love that and I'm thankful for that. And if they give me two minutes, maybe five, I will guide them. And it's amazing. I mean, people always want to be part of something. Why not?

I would definitely agree with Diana. But also, it's a really good question that I've never asked myself. For the most part, I'm pretty neutral, so I wouldn't get offended. But I would also want to take the time to at least have a conversation. I think that's where you get to learn from another person and the other person gets to learn from you. So I would definitely agree with the way Diana worded.

I always appreciate that whenever I have 5000 questions, you both and Ruth always answer and are always so nice about it, especially when I butcher words.

Well, it's fun because you're curious and you want to know things. And I also love that I can go to you for things that I don't know about and ask you all these questions. And you do welcome my questions.

I do. I always appreciate people who love to learn.

Yes.

And we're in the best place for that.

Yes.

All right, before we go, I really need to ask you about atole because it sounds disgusting.

Atole. Honestly, you get the most warm feeling when you take a sip of atole.

It's warm?

It's warm.

Warm. Chocolate and corn in a drink.

It has hints of cinnamon.

Well, that sounds good.

Milk. And it's got a thick texture to it. But imagine sweet cornbread. I don't know if you've ever eaten that with honey. I'm not comparing the taste, but just that corn can be sweet and it can taste. You can take it either to different degrees. Right. Salty.

That's true.

So atole is not going to taste like pure corn. It has these chocolatey layers to it and milk layers, and it's a warm drink for the season that is coming up, which is winter and fall in the cold.

So you don't just drink it for dia de las martos, you drink it anytime in the winter months, at least in my family.

Yes.

My mom will make it usually in the winter months, and we'll eat it with sweet pandulse or. Pandemuerto or even on Christmas pandere.

That sounds nice. I guess that's it. Thank you so much for talking to me about it. I love learning about this stuff and learning about other cultures. And I hope everyone else that listens enjoyed learning about other cultures as well.

Then again is a production of the Northeast Georgia History Center in Gainesville, Georgia. Our podcast is edited by Andrews Giles. Our digital and on site programs are made possible by the Ada May Ioster Education center. Please join us next week for another episode of Then Again.