Hello, everyone, and welcome back to then again the podcast of the Northeast Georgia History Center. I am Marie Bartlett, the director of the ADA may Ivester Education center here. And today I have with me Sterling Biischer, history teacher and stunt horse trainer who worked on the tv show Outlander. Thank you so much for being with us today.

Hi, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to talk to you.

So I have so many questions for you, especially about your time on Outlander, but can we start from the beginning? How did you even get to Scotland? You told me how you had studied at the University of Glasgow in Scotland. So can you tell us about your time there, how you decided to go to university there and a little bit about how you just made your way across the.

Yeah, and, okay, so I grew up. Let's go all the way back. I grew up with my parents that work in the music industry, and my parents used to go to London to record orchestras like a few times a year. Like, they were gone all the time. And so I grew up with them, either over there or I got to go with them quite often. And if I didn't go with them, they would bring me like british history books. And that's just what I was raised on. And I loved it. I loved it so much. I was in London. I was like about twelve, I think, and we were at the Tower of London. And it just hit me that everything I had ever read about it happened right here. It was real, and I knew that, of course, but it became real. And I just realized, I want to study history. That's what I want to do. And then as I got older and started specializing a little bit more, it was scottish history that I was most interested in. So that kind of carried know through later high school into college. I went to university here in the US. But it was kind of always on the radar that I was going to study scottish history, and that might mean going to grad school over there. I would love to do it. And when it was kind of like, okay, I'm going to apply to schools, let's start looking. Scottish history is not a huge field, and I'm sure, you know, if you're going to apply to postgrad programs, you got to go where the academics are. And so I started looking, and I originally thought I wanted to go to the University of Edinburgh. That's what I wanted to do. Most of my research was based in Edinburgh. Anytime we'd been there, Edinburgh was kind of our base. I was familiar with the city. I loved the city. And so I did a study abroad program through the University of Edinburgh when I was still in college. And I used that summer to kind of feel it out. I was like, this is where I'm going to live. It's going to be great. But I thought, it's kind of dumb to maybe put all my hopes on one school. And so I thought, let's look at the other schools in Scotland. Let's have options. And so I reached out to the University of Glasgow, and I was like, hey, I know it's the summer. I don't know if anyone's even around to talk to, but I would just love to talk to people about the program. And they got back to me and they were like, yeah, come down to campus. We'll show you around. We'll talk to you about the program. And I never got that from any of the other schools in was. I don't know, it felt really right. It was such a lovely, welcoming experience. And so I went to Glasgow. I kind of looked at the school and I was, this is, this is actually a really lovely school. And actually, the people specializing in what I wanted to write about were actually at Glasgow. So that became my top school. I applied to so many schools in the US as well. I mean, moving overseas is huge. And so I knew that it might not actually be possible, but that was, like, the goal. So I applied to a bunch of schools. I got into a lot of them, and eventually I just realized, no, Glasgow is it. That's the school I want to go. And so I did. I went over there and I did my master's in scottish history. I loved it there. I would go to school there forever if I could. I loved it. The professors were fantastic. The school was really awesome. And it's a school that was founded in the 14 hundreds. So there's something about going to a school that existed before my own country existed that's really inspiring. Like, the other day, I was teaching my own students now about a person that graduated from Glasgow in the 17 hundreds. And it was like, wow, I don't know, it kind of pushes you to want to live up to the legacy of the school. In a way, that's how I felt about it. And so I got some fantastic training, and it was amazing. I loved it. I loved the University of Glasgow.

So what did you focus on in your studies? And did you write a master's thesis about your topic?

I did, yeah. So my academic work is mostly 16th century Scotland. My girl, Mary, queen of Scots, she's pretty popular. Lots of people talk about her. I got really interested in her because I don't know for how obsessed with her people are. She's not actually the most significant ruler. Like, she didn't really do a lot, to be honest. If not for kind of the scandal surrounding her, I don't know that she would have been the just amazing person that people are obsessed with now. And so I just was kind of fascinated by that. What makes people gravitate towards her. But at the same time, so many important things in scottish history, in british history, in european history come out of her reign, whether she meant them to or not. And so I just find her very interesting. And so I did most of my academic work on kind of her court during her reign and just after, and then sort of her historiographical reputation based on the writings of George Buchanan. That's what my thesis was.

That's so cool. Yeah, I remember I got to study abroad over in the UK as well. And I remember going into Westminster Abbey and seeing Mary, Queen of Scots grave within there. And I thought, oh, my is, it's a beautiful tomb that they have given her. I honestly thought it was Queen Elizabeth.

No, she's just like, around the corner.

And then she's just like, around the corner. And they literally were just like, you can just share one with your, like, you can just share one with Mary because it was Mary, Queen of Scots son James, who is basically like, my mom that you beheaded, gets the nice tomb, and you are just going to get shoved in here with your sister that you didn't really get along with super well. But we're going to make it, like a significant thing. Like, yes. And then, see here is Protestant in Catholic England buried together to show unity. And I'm just like, you just threw her in, like, and then here's a symbolic reference of that. And it's, no, no, not really. But anyway, she is a fascinating character. Mary, Queen of Scots.

Yeah, for sure.

So how did you get involved with the filming of Outlander while you were in Scotland?

Okay, so as often happens in my life, I don't know, I have these weird coincidences. Like, this just happens to me all the time. So, okay, I was going over there, right? I was a fan. I've been a fan of Outlander for a very long time. I've read all the books multiple times, watched the show countless times. I had gone on outlander tours in Scotland before. It was a little bit of an obsession for me. And so when I moved over, I didn't try to find this job at all, it fell in my lap. So the day I arrived in Scotland, my family moved me over. We dropped everything at my new apartment, got in a cab to go to. Like, that was what we did in the cab. I opened Facebook and I saw a posting for a job for a riding instructor. So I train horses, I ride horses. I'm pretty serious within a sport, like, it is my life. And so when I was going to be moving overseas, I have horses here in the US. That was a big consideration of do I go or do I not? And so I had had my eye out, kind of for stables in the Glasgow area. I had been looking. I wanted to try out for the riding team at the university, but I kind of figured if I don't make the team or I just don't want to do it for any reason, I got to find a barn to ride at. I cannot go several years without riding. And so I'd had my eye out. I'd looked at kind of the stables around Glasgow. There were a few that kind of looked like the top choices that might have advanced enough horses that I'd enjoy being there. I could maybe lease something. And I had liked them all on social media. So I opened Facebook and I saw that there was a post looking for a weekend riding instructor at one of the barns I had been kind of keeping an eye on. And I immediately sent over my resume. I was like, here's all the stuff. Do you know, I'm going to be in school? So teaching on the weekends would be perfect. I'm only allowed to work part time. It would be great. So they got back to me. I went, I interviewed, I got the job. And the barn happened to be in Cumbernald, which is the city, kind of in the Glasgow suburbs that the Outlander studio is in. And I knew that, but I had no idea that they would be connected at all. I was just like, oh, that's kind of fun, like, in the same city. And so I was talking to them while I was interviewing and they were kind of like, why are you here? What are you in school for? And I said, scottish history. And they were like, oh, so you must like the show Outlander. And I'm not going to lie, if you're an american visiting Scotland, they're always going to assume that you are a fan of Outlander. And so I feel weird about it. I don't want to be like, oh, my God, yes, I'm obsessed. It makes me feel weird. And so I was like, yeah, no, I really like the show. I've read the books. That's awesome. And they were like, wow, so, funny story. The horses are kept here while they're filming. And I internally was like, having a meltdown externally was just like, oh, that's awesome. And they're like, yeah, so sometimes they look for grooms or they look for help from us, just if they need it. So you're saying you'd be interested? And I was like, yeah, I would be interested. Internally screaming and so anyways, I got the job. I started teaching there. It was the best job I've ever had. The best bosses I've ever had. I love them. And so as I got to know them a little better, I made it a little more obvious. No, I'm actually really obsessed with the show. I can tell you shot for shot what is happening sometimes. And so they were like, oh, yeah, no, when they come back, we'll make sure you get to go to set at least once. And I was like, great. Going one day would have made my entire life. And so I worked there for months. Eventually, they did come back to shoot the new season, and I was just excited to see the horses. Like, being a horse person and watching the show for four seasons up to that point, I love the horses. I was almost more excited to meet them than any of the other people. Yeah. But so when they came, I already had a background, kind of in a little bit of stunt work I perform as a jousting knight. So I did that. I can drive carriages, drive chariots, ride side saddle, like, do all kinds of things that were actually useful on top of studying scottish history and american colonial history, having lived here. So it just sort of worked out. And they took me to set one day. They were like, hey, we need help this day. Can you come? And I was like, yes, I will clear everything in my life to go. And so I went, and I guess they liked me enough and I did a good enough job that they just kept me on. And I worked the whole season. And I hate to discount myself, I work really hard and I am good at my job. But also, it was completely right place at the right time. Just, it all worked out. That's, like, for the best.

Absolutely. A case of the right person at the right place at the right time.

Yeah. No, for sure.

You also have to have the right person at the right place at the right time. Otherwise it doesn't work out as well. But that is amazing. So how did you get into learning how to ride side settle and drive carriages and do this type of stunt work.

Well, so I grew up doing the sport of three day eventing, so that's what I've competed in forever. Honestly, by the time I got to college, I was just burnt out. I was training so much on top of doing school, and I was competing and just kind of not seeing results and qualifications that I wanted. I needed a way to make riding fun. And studying history, particularly the 16th century, like historical tac, I kind of love. I loved the aesthetic of it. And I started thinking, what if I started dressing up my horse? And then one day it was, what if people still joust? What if I did that and managed to find that the people that do our local renaissance festival were like 20 minutes from me, and so I just reached out to them and then started riding with them, and that just really morphed into doing all kinds of other things. I used to drive carriages for some historic houses and carriage companies and stuff. So it's grown kind of organically as well. What if I then did this? What if I then did this and those skills kind of leading into others, and it's been fun. That's so cool. Yeah.

So when you joust, are you doing renaissance fair? I guess I'm asking, where do you joust?

Yeah, at fairs. There are jousting tournaments out there. We mostly do it for fairs. I've worked for a couple of different companies, so we've done a couple of different styles. Like, we've jousted in full plate armor. We've also jousted more theatrically, just kind of whatever the fair wants. It's great. It's really fun training. It's also really nice when you're studying something academically and you're reading about it, to actually experience it, even in a really small way, it just helps, I think, so much, and I think a lot more historians need to do hands on things as well.

I agree. That's my whole philosophy as education director here, is hands on history is experiential learning, is trying to make everything as hands on as safely, for sure. And yes, that's our whole thing here at the history center. So one of the things that we get to do at the ball, the Fraser's Ridge wedding ball, which will be happening in just a couple weeks, I'm so excited, is people get to try historic dance dances that they would have done during that time period, and they get to see a blacksmithing demonstration like it would have been done in that time period. They get to play games that would have been done during that time period. And also I do believe we are going to get to see a horse intact that would have been from that time period. And also, I love how coincidental this was, is that you worked on season five of Outlander, and the ball, thematically, is also season five of Outlander.

Yeah, it is.

Which is just too perfect.

Listen, the first day we went and I got to see the big house, it was, like, magical, especially because it was gorgeous. I was like, I would build this house at home right now. I love it. And over the course of the season, we got to see it being built, because in the show, it's still being finished, and so we were actually seeing it being built kind of every day. Something new would be there. Oh, the scaffolding is gone. Awesome. It was just. I fell in love with the house. I'm so attached to it just because we got to be there.

And I think it's interesting because the show at this point is set in America, but they're still filming in.

Yeah.

So they're trying to make Scotland look like North Carolina.

Yeah. And I'm friends with one of the production designers, and I remember telling her, I was like, look, the cabin looks. I buy it. I would see it. I live in an area that has still some older houses, and I'd buy it. I'd see it driving down the street right now, and I'd be like, yes, that's an older cabin that we still have. You're doing such a good job. When we would come and see river run, the house obviously is not real, but all the fencing set up and everything, I was just like, yeah, it looks like home. It's wild, except for the trees. The trees are.

It's like you didn't get quite the right trees, but that's okay. So what was it like to work with Sam? Hewn?

Sam is lovely. I have worked on a lot of jobs, and I've worked on a lot of things where, you know, they say, don't ever meet your heroes. You're always going to be disappointed. Sam is lovely. Sam is wonderful. When I first got there, people were kind of like, yeah, he's fine. He's nice. He's kind of standoffish, and I don't know. They were offended by that. And I was like, I'm not offended. He meets so many people all the time. He's working. This is his job. Don't be offended. He doesn't want to talk to you. He was just lovely. Let me tell you in person, his eyes, they are blue. But no, I was really impressed. He was always very reading lines, very in his head, kind of thinking about what he was doing. And I really appreciated that. He was pretty good with the horses. I don't know. He was just lovely. It was really fun to talk to him. The very first day I worked with him, I had seen him around and kind of, like, briefly in passing, but the first day I worked with him, I was like, this is my chance. I'm going to talk to him. This might never happen again. And he had just been to Nashville. And so I'm from Nashville, Tennessee, and he had been there on a trip, and I remember seeing him post about on instagram, and I was like, I'm going to talk to him about that's, I want to know what he thought about it. And so I just started a conversation with him about Tennessee and his kind of, like, road trip around here. And after would, we would talk sometimes on set. He's great. He's wonderful.

That's so, like, so you were in charge of his horse? Yeah.

On set with the horses. Obviously, some days the horses are not there. Like, they're in the studio doing interior shots. Right. We are still working, schooling the horses at home, like training for stunts that might be coming up or teaching actor lessons that they're not working that day. We're doing stuff most days when we're on set. Sometimes we have 22 horses, sometimes we might have two. And so it's a different job every day, which is kind of why it's fun. And so some days, especially if he's there, kind of one person would get assigned to each horse just because it made everything easier. And his horse that he rides, the gray in these most recent seasons, that horse is a stallion. And so stallions, they need a little bit more special handling. Not everyone was kind of allowed to mess with that horse. And because I was schooling them at home, I had ridden them quite a bit. And so I was one of the ones allowed to mess with Pinocchio. And so that means that if you're with Pinocchio that day, you're with Sam. And so, yeah, some days I worked specifically with him, which is a lot of just supervising. He's worked with the horses now for years, so he's not one that, like, oh, he's going to die, but you still have to very much keep an eye on him. It was just like a lot of helping him get on and off, resetting the horse for him. One day, I got to be him. It was pouring rain, absolutely pouring rain all night. And so when we were kind of setting up shots. The actors would go hide in a tent because it was raining. So I got to be Sam for rehearsals, which was really, really fun. I had to jump off his. We rode up and kind of stopped, and then he would get off and go talk to someone, and then that was the scene. And so we got to ride up and stop, and I hopped off the horse like he does on the show, and then went over and pretended to have the conversation while they set up all the cameras. And it was weird. It was so fun. That's so cool.

You were literally, like, his stunt person.

Yeah, I guess so.

Or, like, stand in. I guess stand in is the stunt stand.

Yeah. I wasn't really tall enough, but I did do it.

So what is one of the hardest stunts that you've had to train for?

I would say it's not even on Outlander in general, like, doing stuff on chariots pretty hard. Doing anything with, I would say anything with carriages that involve speed. Driving can be quite dangerous as it is. Just think, like, if a horse spooks and there is a crowd around or people around or cameras around and they are pulling something behind them, if you lose control of them, we've just exponentially increased danger level. And so if we're adding speed onto carriages or chariots, it's dangerous. And so that, I would say, is the hardest thing always to train for just because it has to be so right. And your margin of error is a lot lower.

I'm also thinking the amount of people that you have just put into the carriage and onto the carriage has also increased injury possibility to people as well. And sometimes there's multiple horses on a carriage.

Yeah.

So everything is just heightened more and more.

No, there are jobs with teams of four galloping, and it's wild.

So you will drive the carriages at times, yes.

Not on outlander. I never did because I'm not a man, so I just never got to drive. But I do drive carriages. Yes. That's so cool. It's really fun. No, it's so fun. And it really. I don't know. I love to think about all, like, this was our mode of transportation until really recently in history, and it's so fun to just think about, like, this was how people did things. I love it. That's why I love driving.

Honestly, one of our artifacts. Well, when you walk into the land of Promise gallery at the northeast Georgia history center, we have a coke truck from the 1930s, and then we also have a Bagwell wagon, which is actually from the 1940s. So one of my favorite fun facts when I'm giving guided tours is this wagon is actually newer than this car and was used in Gainesville, where the history center is located for a long time. Just showing how rural areas were, especially within. If they were farther away from major cities such as Atlanta, which would be our largest major city, people still used wagons all the way up until, like, the 1950s, 1960s, when we started to have interstates more and more become more and more common. So it's wild to think that we had depended on this mode of transportation for centuries upon centuries, like thousands upon thousands of years, and then we just kind of, like, abandoned it 50 years ago.

Yeah, no, it's so recent. Yeah. No, also, I just thought of the hardest thing we did have to do on.

Oh, yes.

Okay. So you might recall in episode four of season five, they are at Brownsville, and they have to set the horses loose as, like, a distraction. Loose horses was the bane of our existence that season. It was multiple days across, multiple months. I almost died just because we had to set these horses loose the very first day we ever did it. So the way we would train for this is the horses are pretty used to being loose. Being at liberty, like, this is their job, but it's still releasing a bunch of horses loose around cameras, around equipment, around people who don't know anything about, like, it's stressful. So Brownsville was set up on this little farm track that had a pretty steep hill up one side and a pretty steep hill down the other side, and it's not that wide. It had also been pouring rain for days. It's Scotland. It happens. And so the mud was, like, up to your ankles. It just was kind of miserable. And so we took the horses there for a rehearsal day, and we set up, like, a temporary fence, and half the people would be up in this little catch field, and half the people would be holding the horses down at the bottom, and the people leading the horses would lead the horse up the track into the place where they were going to end up loose. And the people up there would offer them a bite of grain, and then they would get caught, and then they would be taken back, and they'd walk up the hill. And you did that a few times at the walk, and then they would lead them up the hill at a trot. And, I mean, this is, like, a half mile track. It's actually quite long. They'd trot them up the hill so that they understand, like, you go up the hill, you get some food. Yay. This is all you have to do today. And then kind of after a few times of that, they would let go of them and kind of be like, go on, guys. And we would be shaking buckets at the top, and they'd hear it, and they would come running. And then on the day we were cracking whips and stuff, like, no, we mean run up there. But we do everything kind of slow and methodical at first. And so that all went fine. They got it. There was, like, a little temporary fence set up along the track drop off down to the side. And the assumption was like, oh, that's just here as a visual. Now we'll take it off on the day. On the day of shooting, it was even muddier, even worse. We only did it twice. But the horses came galloping up the hill like they were supposed to. They looked fantastic in the episode. It looked great, but they come galloping up. It was raining. They all started kind of like, bouncing off one another. If you've seen horses just very excited and rounding around all at the same time, they're galloping around this little field. One of them slipped and fell and slid. Almost took me out. I legitimately almost died. It was fine. They all got caught. It was great, right? Loose horses worked out well, but then we kept having to do pieces of it. So if you watch this minute of this scene with the horses loose, it took place at, like, three different locations. It was like four different days. It's all cut together. And then we had to do them at the big house, actually, is where we shot them running free in this open field. They're running. They have their cut halters, and there's a voiceover of Claire talking over it and stuff when they're running. That was at the big house, and that was another day that was just chaotic. Trying to match. We're trying to match horses running free, which doesn't really work, but we tried kind of where they were in the order and everything. It was fine. It was fine. But loose horses was just every day they'd be like, hey, guess what? We got to do more of this week. And we'd be like, no, not loose horses. It was always loose horses, though.

That's so interesting, because I would have thought loose horses. Oh, you just let them go. There's no structure to it because it looks unstructured. But you made it to where.

But there was structure. Yes.

Where you had to train this thing to happen to make it look unstructured but still have it be structured. So it is safe.

Yeah, so it's safe. That's the biggest thing. And honestly, the horses are so good. They know their jobs so well because we were trying to make it look like the horses had been, like their ropes were cut and they were set free. Some of them were wearing halters, some of them weren't. Some of them were wearing halters that had clearly been cut. We tried to make it look kind of varied. And when we were holding horses down, ready to release them and crack whips and stuff, they would stand dead quiet. Not, they're chill. They're parked, standing. Everything's great. The second the horse heard rolling, they're suddenly, like, bouncing because they're like, we're going to run. We're going to run. We're going to go. Yeah, we're going to let us go. Them turning it on is so fun to watch. A lot of people are like, wow. Actors go from totally fine themselves to in an instant they're in character. No, like the horses, man. They know their jobs and they're suddenly bouncing, ready to go the second they hear rolling. Like, it's crazy. I love it. They're so awesome. That's so cool.

There should be oscars for best animal actor should be nominated.

Yeah. Well, and you want to know the one that I think could take it is Sam's horse, Pinocchio. So the horse he's riding now in the show, the gray, he's, like, mostly white. He has some fleabites. That horse has been in every single season of Outlander. You would not recognize him because they die. I know.

I don't remember there being a gray horse.

There has been. It hasn't been.

He.

So in season one, the horse that Jamie takes Claire home to Lallybrock on is not the horse he was riding throughout most of the season. It's Pinocchio died black.

Because I thought that horse was black.

Okay. Yeah, it was black in the show.

Okay. But he's like, I'm not losing my mind.

If you watch him, he's got kind of some lighter gray rings around his eyes because he's dyed. He's actually gray. And it's the same horse that he took Claire to the stones on at the end of season two. The gray with a black man and tail. It's pin with a dyed man and tail, and then he's gray. In the most recent seasons in America, it's wild. All the same horse. Yeah.

Such range and acting ability.

It is, for sure.

So what is some of the main differences between the historical tac and modern horse tac that you've worked with. And also, can you explain to our non horse people what tac is?

Yes. Okay, so tac is the equipment that goes on the horse. Particularly tac is what you're using to ride. So it's your bridle, your bit, your reins, your breastplate, your saddle girth, stirrups, kind of the stuff that goes on the horse. That's tack. So, like, if we put it on, we'd say we're tacking a horse up. If we take it off, we're saying we're untacking them. Horse tack is one of those things that I think is fascinating because throughout history, equipment for horses and horse care has simultaneously stayed absolutely the same and also modernized exponentially. It's wild. So the concept of shoes on a horse has been around for thousands of years. We've changed the shape of them a little bit. We've changed the function and specialization of them a little bit. But the concept is the same how we groom horses, the same how we feed horses, generally the same. Obviously, we know tons more about nutrition and creating very specialized feeds, but that's a much more recent invention. And so I think horse Tac is just very interesting because of this. You go to a museum and you see Tac from 1000 years ago. It's pretty recognizable is what it is. And so I have a book of horse care from 1796. I found it in this random used bookstore in Edinburgh, actually, and it's one of my favorite possessions. I love looking at it and kind of seeing what's the same, what's different? Because it's kind of surprising at how much the same it is. So, especially in the context of outlander and film. And I think about this a lot as well, doing medieval reenactment, tac bits know pretty much the same. I once did a project on a bit that's in the National Museum in Edinburgh. I believe it was found in the roman period. It was gorgeous. It was like this plain, single jointed, loose ring snaffle bit that had once had enamel all over it. So there's some little colored flecks still left on it. It would have been gorgeous, but it looks like a bit I could put on my horse right now and it would do the job. Yeah. So we had a problem of people that are very tied up with historical accuracy. Horses are kind of where they get nitpicky, and I have been nitpicky as well. I'm not going to lie because I would love for it to be perfectly accurate. But the thing is, well, one, we don't always know exactly what all of the tac looked like, because we have an issue of a lot of metal things survive, but leather doesn't always survive, or fabric, or any natural material, it doesn't always survive. And so we do have an idea of what tac looked like based on few examples that do survive, or from paintings or drawings. But we don't always have the perfect idea of exactly how tac was or its function. Even if we see what it looked like, then we also have the idea or the problem of cost. There are some fantastic historical saddle makers out there. I would do anything to have some of them. They are thousands of dollars per saddle, like they are works of art, truly. But we need over 20 saddles sometimes. Where are we going to get those? So we look to a lot of tac that is immediately recognizable as not normal, I guess we could say, but still being easily accessible now in the modern period. And the best examples we have of this is, like, spanish and portuguese tac. So if you look at a lot of film productions throughout history, you're going to see a lot of tac that we are using. Spanish saddles, portuguese saddles, some kind of modification of more modern English crossed over with the spanish influence saddles and spanish bits, because spanish bits, you can see drawings of them in older texts, like some one, five, hundreds writing manuals, that the bit looks exactly the same. It is the same bit. And a lot of that has really carried into the iberian riding tradition. And if you look at spanish saddles, they kind of look almost in between medieval saddles and modern english saddles. And so they work really well for the purposes of filmwork. They look different. They are leaning a little bit historical traditionally, but they are easy to get. And so this is what you're going to see a lot of in season one. Claire was riding in a Doma Bacara spanner saddle. Jamie was riding in a Cossack trick saddle that had fur covering it. They're finding ways to make these modern, odd saddles work for the historical period. In the later seasons of Outlander, if you look, all of the saddles that they're using are like 20th century cavalry saddles. They're not reproductions. They are real. They're like 100 years old. I can tell you they're uncomfortable, but they are real cavalry saddles. Honestly, that stunt company probably owns the largest collection of those types of saddles in the world, I'm guessing, because if they see one, they snap it up, because they always need them. They look like some paintings we have of saddles in the 18th century. Some 18th century saddles were still styled in kind of the more 17th century classical horsemanship style. And you can find those still within spanish saddles. But also in the 18th century, your basic saddle was starting to look a lot more like a modern english saddle. And so that's why they use early 20th century cavalry saddles, because they look different, like, they don't look like a traditional english saddle. I could go by right now, but they're very functional. They're easier to get. You don't have to get used to riding in them. They're just a saddle. And so that works for Outlander. And I know some people are so upset about it. I've seen them online. But it is what it is that is the best option that we have. To be honest. I deal with this with medieval saddles. I would love to have a custom made jousting saddle. I don't joust every single day. I can't get one of those right now. But I have a portuguese saddle. I have some spanish saddles. We make it work, and we make it look historical. And I think this is the thing about historical fiction almost and period dramas is that it is historical fiction. We're trying our hardest to represent what we're representing, but we're kind of doing the best we can with what we have available and what we can make.

I like to remind people that Outlander is not a documentary.

It is not. You cannot go touch a stone and travel. I'm sorry, but it doesn't work that way.

Yes, that's what I like to remind people when they get upset about XYZ, historical fantasy tv show movie, and they're like, that's not accurate. People will think it's accurate. I'm like, this has time travel in it. This is set in an alternate universe. This is not a documentary. And if people actually think that's a documentary, we have larger problems on our hands to figure out. So I like to remind people, because I also am one of those. Of course, we're historians. We have studied history. We like to see history accurately represented. That's part of our job when we teach history, is we want to make sure we get it right. If you're in a museum, in a classroom setting, but on a tv show that is historically inspired, there are also other concerns. And also, even within my own life, when I am making a historical outfit, I try to get it as accurate as possible. But there are some things where it's like, well, I can't go back and get fabric from the loom in the 17 hundreds that was this specific width and made with this specific cotton, made with this sheep or made with this wool from this certain sheep that is now extinct. It's physically impossible. So we try to get as close as we can.

I have so much appreciation for some of the historical costumers that try. We hand sewed this part, and if they're going to use a machine, it is a machine from the period that they're trying to make. I love it. I think it's amazing. If I'm sewing a costume, I only have limited time in my life. I'm sewing it with my machine.

I am working on an outfit for the Outlander ball currently, which is almost a slightly more historical take on the outfit that Brianna wears to her wedding.

Okay.

It's her wedding dress and it's the 17 hundreds. It would have all been hand sewn, hand embroidered, but I just do not have time for that. So I use my machine for embroidery and I use my machine on all the inside seams. And now I'm getting to the point of finishing it where I'm just like, okay, and now we'll use the. I'll hand sew just the edges so that it looks hand sewn. But, yeah, I didn't have quite time to sew all of it by hand.

It's going to be amazing, I'm sure.

Oh, thank you. Thank you. I am excited to see everyone's outfits as they come to Outlander Ball. And you will be out at the Outlander ball. Can you tell people a little bit about what you will be doing there?

Yes, I will be there. I'm so excited. It sounds absolutely amazing. So I'm going to be bringing one of my horses. He is one of my stun horses in training. He's a lovely little Andalusian. He is solid black. And I also make historical Tac. And I have several sets of, as accurate as I possibly can, Outlander tac. So I'm going to bring him with Jamie's tack from season one that you can take pictures with and you can see him and I can talk about all the Tac that is used on the show. And I think it's going to be really awesome.

I am so, so excited that you reached out to us and that you are able to come to this event at the history center. We are so excited to see you and your horse and all just get to hear even more about your time on Outlander. Getting to see a little peek into the past and a peek into the behind the scenes of Outlander. So I'm sure people will get to be ecstatic to get to talk to you, and we'll have you maybe share a story or two with us as well. So this has been absolutely wonderful. Thank you so much for being on a podcast with us today and also for coming to the ball, which will be coming up very, very soon. And if anyone has not gotten their tickets for the ball yet, we will have the link in the description box for this episode. So make sure you go ahead and get your tickets. They are going pretty fast. The vip tickets are going very fast. We only have a few seats left for dinner. And then we also have general admission tickets, of course, still for sale. So we hope to see you at the ball.

Yes. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited.

Thank you so much. Then again, is a production of the Northeast Georgia History center in Gainesville, Georgia. Our podcast is edited by Andrews Giles. Our digital and on site programs are made possible by the ADA May Ioster Education center. Please join us next week for another episode of then again.