Hello, everyone, and welcome back to then again the podcast of the Northeast Georgia History Center. I am your host on this episode, Marie Bartlett, the director of the ADMA Ivester Education center here. And today. Our special guest is Greg Graffois, the associate artistic director of the Gainesville Theater alliance and director of BFA acting at Brunell. Thank you so much for being with us today.

Thank you so much for having me here and letting me come in from the cold.

Absolutely. Could you tell us a little bit more about yourself, your background and the Gainesville Theater alliance?

Yes. So I am come here to Brunell via way of Chicago, where I lived for the last eleven years, moved there after I graduated from University of Iowa. I always joke about like, I got my master's in make believe and I've been living in Chicago for the last eleven years and then primarily working as an actor and educator. I was a teaching artist for almost all of my years while I was there and then started teaching at the collegiate level in 2020. Primarily what I'm kind of known for right now professionally because I haven't done a show since 2019 as far as being an actor, but I'm an intimacy director or intimacy choreographer. So helping to create a culture of trauma, informed, consent based cultures for folks who are telling and navigating challenging stories on stage. So, yeah, that is what I do. Aka don't sleep.

So many things.

So many things.

Yes. And can you tell our listeners who might not know what the Gainesville Theater alliance is? What is the alliance?

Oh, yeah. So GTA is a combination of two universities, Brunell University and the University of North Georgia, coming together to create academically and both combined. Both academically and for productions. So all the productions that are done here on Brunell's campus or UnG's campus is in collaboration with the two universities.

Because I didn't realize that until fairly recently that it was indeed just a collaboration between those two universities, which is amazing.

Yes. And it's been, I mean, oh gosh, they always tell me the year and I always forget. But I want to say seventy s. Seventy s sounds about right. How I've contextualized it is. Bernal, historically women's college, ung, I think back then, Gainesville Community College, hopefully I'm not misremembering that, but it's just like, we have technicians, we have stages, you have women, we have men. We're like, we need to come together specifically. Like, all jokes aside, it's just a matter of we are better combined than we are separate and one of my favorite quotes is diversity builds capacity. So that which I am unable to do, if I bring somebody else in the room who can do that, then we're actually able to do more because we have more knowledge in the space.

Yeah, that's great. That's a great quote. So this spring, you are doing the crucible. It is going on stage in just a couple of days. I read your little about the show, and here's the quote that's from on the website. It says, the Crucible, winner of the 1953 Tony Award for best play. This captivating drama about the puritan purge of witchcraft in old Salem, is both a gripping historical play and a timely parable for our contemporary audience of our contemporary society. So how did you select the crucible to be this year's spring show?

Well, I was actually not part of the season selection on this. So the crucible is a show that I inherited, if I could be so candid. It's not a show that I loved, to be honest. I was just like, I did know about the Salem witch trials beforehand and such. And I actually said this to the students, the actors, and there's 30 students in this cast, by the way, so there'll be plenty of folks on the stage. But something that I said to them, I said, it's actually probably best that I don't love this play is because then I can look at it objectively. And I'm not trying to have you all live in an idea that I've always had about a play that I've revered. In a way, I have grown to a place of respecting the story that is the space that I'm in right now. And I do love this production. I think it's because of the students that I get to work with, both on stage and both the students who are. I have a movement director, I have an assistant director, my stage management team. And so to be able to work with that many students, even though I am horribly outnumbered, has been a great delight. And to be able to navigate this story has been, I'm trying to find the best word for it, I want to say, illuminating. It is, I think, the challenge of watching something happen in cycles, that old adage, those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it. But I'm like, I learned this, but I don't think the right people necessarily learned this. That part has been challenging, but we have been instructing the students, thinking about their characters, like, where is the light? Because it's so easy to live in the darkness of 1692 Salem, Massachusetts. But each of these individuals finds their light in one way or another. I mean, one could say hope, but I'm just going to say light because I think there are folks who are coming out of very specific type of darkness.

Yeah. So how familiar were you with the show and the Salem witch trials, the history itself? I know everyone kind of knows, like, oh, yeah, Salem witch trials. But how much did you know about the characters that you were bringing to life? Essentially, because this is a partially historically based drama and then also partially fictionalized, how do you kind of navigate that line and where did your research? Kind of.

Purposely, because there are myriad of. I believe there are three or four productions out, some that are filmed on stage, some that are like movies. Daniel Day Lewis playing John Proctor is the one, I think, that everybody knows. But because I didn't have that fervor for this piece, I actually haven't seen any of them. And I still haven't seen any of them purposely, because I didn't want that to influence in any kind of way, shape, or form this production. I will go back and probably watch it, probably because I'm just like, oh, do I really want to sign myself up to watching a different iteration of this lovely. This lovely story? So I knew that it happened in 1692. That which I did not know was it only lasted. It was February. It started February 1692, and it in May of 1693. So something of such significance only lasting 15 months. But having such a profound impact is something that resonates with me in a very profound way, how history doesn't actually need as much time to be as impactful or to be long lasting. I know they said the words of witch hunt versus wizard hunt and such. And it was 200 people accused, 19 people, 30 people who were found guilty and 19 that were killed, 14 women and five men. So those are things that I kind of knew, but kind of was reminded of along the way. And that, which is a little eerie to me because I know folks have very specific things around the number 13, but John Proctor. The play ends with. Sorry, spoiler alert. The play ends with John Proctor going to the gallows, and he's the 13th person, that is. And it's like said in the play, and just like that in itself really resonates with me in a very specific way, that number 13.

And, yeah, it's really interesting. I was familiar with the play because I had to read it as part of my american lit class in high school. So we read the play altogether, and then we also watched the movie, the one with Daniel Day Lewis and Winona Ryder. And then I have not actually seen it as a stage play, but I have been very fascinated by the idea of the Salem witch trials, reading about it, historical fiction the history center actually did. During the pandemic, we experimented with some short films, since we have this lovely digital studio, which we are in right now. And we found the transcript for the trial of Bridget Bishop, who was one of the first to be on trial for witchcraft in Salem. And we essentially just reenacted the script as it was, like, the trial transcript. And that was very. Just wild to see. Like, oh, my goodness, these people had no chance, really. This idea of spectral evidence that you didn't have to really submit any type of physical evidence in court, that this one person could just say, I saw her spirit pinch me, and then that's enough. To hang someone is just to us, it was outrageous, but obviously it happened. What is something that you feel like you have learned while preparing this show?

There's two things. One, something that you just said reminds me of a quote, and hopefully, I don't know, Butcher said, quote, an uninformed majority will always lose the battle of information against a, quote, informed minority, especially if that minority is viewed as the authority. In other words, it is so easy for folks to follow the person who we believe has the most information because of the position or the status that they hold in a society. But something that I were very early on in talking about this play, and I'm not trying to make light of the Salem witch trials, but something that how I spoke about the play, I would say, like, oh, this is just a game of telephone that's gone horribly wrong. It's just the fact of, it's not misinformation. It's lack of information. And something that I specifically play with in this iteration, in this production is folks coming to. While act one, scene one, is occurring, there are folks, townspeople are coming to the window and hearing just a little bit of a snippet of something and then running away. And how easily one can build a whole story without full context. And that, to me, is the core cause of the hysteria that occurs during that time. So it's not misinformation because we're in the age of information now. Like, we literally walk around with pocket computers, but it is a matter of who got what information and how that information is only perceived through one's personal lens. And so that, which is kind of an undercurrent for all of this that I don't think we talk about enough, is the vengeance that was being executed during that time to essentially take people's land. Because if you were accused. So, yes, if you were accused or you confessed, actually, let me correct. If you confess to it, then you have to relinquish your lands. And so, like, Giles Corey, which is famously known for being crushed to death, never actually admits. And so then his land can actually be passed down to his children. And so it is just like, utilizing the children, weaponizing, essentially, the children, and saying that God is speaking through the children in order for the adults to enact very damaging acts of harm. Second thing that really, still really vibrates with me, and I don't think I've ever. I don't think I've found a solution to it all is fear. So the word fear pops up in the text 40 times. So it was kind of very clear to me, just, like, what is the primary thing that is happening in this space? And the acronym that I've used as far as kind of, like, our guiding lens for talking about all things, design and everything and building the world is using the acronym fear. So fear, false evidence appearing real, and so really playing around with the idea of, I think I saw a thing, and if you get enough people to cooperate with that, how powerful that then becomes. And so, to me, how I'll land this plane in particular, is saying, thinking about the fact that this is going to be on a stage, what it reminds me of, specifically for audiences that are coming in, is the power of witnessing. I mean, I think that is the ultimate call of theater, of specifically live performance is like the performance that you are watching only happens once. There are different iterations of it on different nights. There are ten performances. Please come to the cursival. But every single performance is going to be different depending on the conversation that is happening in the zeitgeist. How is that affecting the students that are in that production? Walking into the space, how that's affecting the audience before they come in, the phone call you get or the text message you get before you walk into theater has a profound effect on what it is that you're seeing. And so, ultimately, wanting to play with, what are we seeing? What aren't we seeing? And how we're interpreting things? And I think, for the most part, how this play has historically been done is through the lens of John Proctor. And that which I challenge myself and was challenged by the cast to do is, how do we make sure that the women in the story are being uplifted and their voice is coming through, not trying to alter Arthur Miller's words or anything. Arthur Miller, the feminist we never knew we needed. Right. But it is a matter of, I don't know if Arthur Miller was a feminist, and from what I gathered, not so much, but anyways. But it is a matter of those stories are there. I didn't have to force them or anything of that nature. Like, those narratives are there. And so what is it? Not only to being that the women don't have as much to say as far as text written down, how do we make sure that they're still seen and their impact and their presence is still really felt?

Because you can do so much with the staging of the play of who's where at what time is being highlighted.

Yeah, because ultimately, the folks who are left after these men are killed, well, I mean, like I said, only five men were killed. But the repercussions of all of these, because the accused are also, like, in prison, and the repercussions of it is what happens to all of these women. And there's a final moment in the play, so you have to come and watch that. I'm attempting to highlight just that. No added text or anything like that, but just a very specific moment built in to kind of close out the play.

I'm excited to see that and fascinated because I will be there, I believe, Thursday, the preview night.

Oh, nice.

Yeah. Now, this is going to be a slightly off topic question, but it reminded me when you said the informed majority can usually. I'm sorry, an informed minority can basically outwit an uninformed majority. Have you ever played the game werewolf?

I literally have the card game in.

My head right now because I've seen that quote in conjunction with the game werewolf.

Yes. And that is where I got. I was just like, oh, yeah. I'm like, yeah. Especially if they're adamant, especially if they are just. It is. I'm going to sound like old man shaking fist at cloud right now, but the fact that we primarily, as a society, live most of our lives online and not in IRL, but that is literally like the Internet, that digital space is like the wild west.

Oh, it is.

It is. The fact that there are no regulations as far as information or anything of that nature, it's terrifying. It is absolutely terrifying. And to me, that is the reflection or one point of access as far as connecting that history of 1692 to our present 2024. It's not from lack of information, it is questioning the source of information. And additionally, what do people use that information for? Like, I think of, like, Thomas Putnam in the play utilizing Giles Corey. Just simply saying, like, my wife is reading books and I don't know know. I just want to know what she's reading. Like, literally, that is a curiosity. I just want to know what she's reading and that leading to her literally being accused of witchcraft because she reads women reading Dangerous as opposed to men killing other men. It's so fascinating how the beginning, that which we see in the beginning of the play, which is like, these girls, and I want to highlight that these girls playing in the woods is perceived to be the most dangerous part of this. All the real life consequences that is enacted by these men in power to me is like, that is the thing that is the most detrimental. But it's so easy to focus on. But the women and the witches and the girls and Abigail, it is so easy for us to paint that narrative of just like, these are the actual dangerous people, who do we decide to humanize and who do we see? What lens do we see our stories through?

Who's the quote unquote good guy? Who's the quote unquote?

I mean, I think John Proctor is a villain. If you really look at. I mean, there's literally, like, Kimberly Bellflower actually has a whole play, literally has a play called John Proctor is the villain.

Very blatant.

Yeah, very blatant. So it all depends on what lens you're looking at this playthrough. Now, to be clear, I have not villainized John Proctor. I just let him do that on his own. But that which cannot be lost. And I think it's an uncomfortable thing to talk about, but it's a very real, like, it's not the fact that he committed adultery. It's the fact that this was with somebody who he had authority over. This was a kid and he is an adult. And I think that kind of gets lost in there. But it's all about how do we paint the kids? How do we paint the children in this narrative? It's so interesting that they're propped up. But if you go through the text, and this is because I've been living in this world for, like, the last six months of life, if you go through the text very specifically act on scene one, Tichuba is speaking, and they're just like, you are a vessel. You're going to help us. And the thing that Reverend hell says is like, how many people? Was it two? Was it three? Was it four? And Tituba immediately says there was four. And you're just like, you're literally getting fed this information and just like, watching that happens in that same scene, Thomas Putnam goes, was it goody good or Osborne? And then literally, like a page and a half later, Tituba goes, and then I saw goody good. And I saw. And you're just like, you're literally watching these men just kind of feed this information into the space and then going, but the kids said it. It's just like, they're kids who don't want to get in trouble. They're going to just say, yeah, I saw this thing. Yeah, exactly what you said.

Yeah. Talk about leading a witness.

Yes. And so it is a matter. Yeah. So it is a matter of, like, who do we trust to believe? Trust women. Listen to women. And it's so easy to prop up John Proctor as this kind of like, this antihero sort. But I'm just like, he's responsible for a lot of the things that occurred there. I mean, I'm not trying to absolve Abigail for how she went about it, but I'm just like, he's the catalyst for a lot of these things. And I think that, which I'm excited about is just kind of like letting the audience really kind of see that.

This play is obviously about the Salem witch trials that happened in 1692. But when Arthur Miller wrote it in 1953, a couple hundred years after the fact, it was really very heavy handedly allegory for communism and the McCarthyism and the red scare and the communist witch hunts that they use the words witch hunts for the communists. And I think that's probably how he got the ideas. He heard this, this is a witch hunt on tv, and then went and was like, ah, but when was there a real witch hunt for real, quote unquote real witches in America? And then wrote it as an allegory for how much evidence do you really need to accuse somebody and how can that affect that person's life? And I think we could think of a lot of situations that that probably applies to today, whether that be on a world scale, a national scale, a personal level. Why do you feel like this show is still important to perform today?

Oh, this could be a whole hour conversation if we want to. Trust me, it's not going to be.

I promise.

I promise. Folks, there is something to be said about who we choose to believe. And, I mean, I think about, like, growing up like some of my idols. Now that I've gotten older, I'm just like, oh, yeah, you are not necessarily a great person. How it was very easy to dismiss their actions because of the admiration. So action being less impactful than an admiration of love and an admiring of somebody. And as the famous Batman quote, you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become a villain. As we go, as we careen towards an election year. This being my first time in the south during an election since my. In my adult life. I mean, I was in Florida, but I was in Florida when I turned 18 and everything of that nature. But Florida is kind of like the extended south in a weird kind of way. It's the only state. Like, the further north you are, the further north you go in Florida, the further south you like. That's the feeling, especially as somebody who grew up in Miami. That's just my own perspective. But as we're careening towards an election cycle and thinking about how decisions that are going to be made by those who we elect are not only going to reverberate during their time in office, but continue have a rippling effect through history, I think the importance of this play is examination, and I think the word that I would primarily use is contextualization. It is very easy for us to only to be very limited in our observation of something, something I constantly tell my students. Observations are made from a space of curiosity and not judgment, because the minute that you've determined what something is, you're no longer exploring it. The moment, the difference between, like, oh, you have on a red shirt, versus just like, oh, I wonder what that shirt is made of. I wonder what the history of that shirt is. It's like, does somebody give you that shirt? Is that your favorite shirt? Then I'm in a place of curiosity. Then I'm in a place of questioning. Then I haven't reached a final solution on something, because we, as people, were nuanced, and nothing in our lives lives on a binary. We try to define so many things on a binary, but everything has nuance to it. And so I ask my students constantly to remain curious, like, be exploring, asking those questions. And so, as we are making decisions moving forward, how much examination are we actually delving into? And more importantly, how much are we contextualizing something, not only in the present moment, but fully understanding what is going to be the future effect of the decisions that we make, the people that we entrust our vote to, our livelihoods, too, the decision making powers. And so, to me, it is simply that we have all the information that we need. As I talked about before, we have the pocket computers. But what are you doing with that information? Truly doing with that information. So, yeah. So, staying curious.

Absolutely. If I may add, probably I would take from that is also withholding judgment, right? Staying curious, withholding judgment. Because if you already judge something, then you aren't going to remain curious, right? You don't want to cast that condemnation onto whatever it. Yeah. So we hope all of our listeners stay curious. Come out to the Crucible put on by the Gainesville Theater alliance. It's going to be a great show. I know it. All right, so if people are curious about where to get tickets, where can they get tickets for this wonderful performance?

So this performance of the Crucible by Arthur Miller will be running February 16. This Friday until February 24. There will be ten performances, nine performances for the public, one for students. I'm so excited for the student production. And to acquire your tickets, all you have to do is go to the Gainesville Theater alliance website.

And if any of you are interested in getting tickets, of course we will be linking that below. So go to the description box and you can click the link to get the tickets. But just in case you would like to have it to type into your.

Web browser, what would that website beganesviltateralliance.org.

Thank you so much for joining us today as we talk about the Crucible, this incredibly interesting story that has spoken to so many generations and continues to speak to a contemporary audience. I am so excited to get to see this performance and see what you've done with it. So thank you so much for sharing your insights today.

Thank you so much for having me. And I do hope you come to the production and that which I'm the most excited about are the conversations that will occur after you see it.

So thank you all for listening to. Then again, from the Northeast Georgia History center, we'll catch you next time.

Then again, is a production of the Northeast Georgia History center in Gainesville, Georgia. Our our podcast is edited by Andrews Giles. Our digital and on site programs are made possible by the AdA May Ioster Education center. Please join us next week for another episode of then again.