Hello everyone, and welcome to then again I am Liba Beecham, the interim executive director here at the Northeast Georgia History Center. And today we have a local teacher and a producer of the Moving Through Georgia podcast, Jim Betts. And Jim is a teacher who has utilized our programs before and has visited the History Center, so it's an extra special occasion. Thank you so much, Jim, for being on.

I'm glad to be here. Yes, we did have James Oglethorpe and Mary Musgrave visit our school via Zoom recently this year, and the kids loved.

Oh, thank you so much. It's such a fun program. And today we're going to be talking about history education in general and how the History Center and its programs really rely on living history methodology. And I'm excited to get your perspective on this, Jim, as a local teacher. So without further ado, let's dive in.

Well, I've done a little bit of research here, and I have found that a lot of people feel that the teaching of history right now in schools has a problem with relevance. Children tend to leave the classroom without being able to answer the question, why do we study history? And local history is starting to get subsumed into the study of global history because we are becoming a more global society, and that is causing its own problems.

As sure. I mean, I think that once folks feel connected to where they live, especially kids, you're going to really incite their curiosity about history in general. So, for instance, here at the Northeast Georgia History Center, we have the wonderful White Path cabin, a historic cabin that we date being built somewhere between the late 17 hundreds and the early 18 hundreds. And this is a wonderful interpretive tool for kids to really tie them to the region's history, because this was originally the home of a Cherokee tribal leader named White Path and his family, who, like many Cherokee, were removed during the era of Indian removal in the 1830s. And then the home came into the possession of a white settler family. And so we're able to talk about the culture of the Cherokee and everything from their material culture, so their food ways, the textiles they use, the Bead work, the games they would play, the religion, really all of these aspects of daily life. And then we can transition into the later era to talk about life on a homestead of these settlers and what their daily life would have been like. So rather than really emphasizing the big heroes of history or those that we commonly associate with the big names of history, I think that sharing local history and giving kids an experience, a memorable experience that they can have a memory where they were doing the corn grinding at the White Path cabin, they actually ground their own corn. Then they get to see an open fire cooking demonstration with the corn that they've ground. They get to make their own hand dipped wax candles. They get to play early Cherokee games like Chunky. And so having that really engaging and interactive part of teaching local history is really what it's all about for us. And from my perspective it's not about them retaining specific information, these names, these dates. It's really inciting that curiosity for the kids and also just giving them the chance to ask the questions and really ask the questions of a history expert here. And to touch history, to smell history, to taste history, to feel history. I think it really puts them sometimes literally in the shoes of what we're talking about and that's the main goal is to make them curious and give them the tools that they need to ask the right questions and to analyze history. It's really not about if they walk away and they can't remember the founder of Georgia's name, that is okay. But they probably will walk away thinking about those first settlers and how difficult their life may have been, how many challenges they had, how different it is from their own and all the cool things that they did have. For instance, they might see a blacksmithing demonstration, they might see a weaving or spinning demonstration. To see all of this is very active history and I love that's what we can provide to kids and it.

Provides them an opportunity to make connections with what they see in their own. I mean where we are in northeast Georgia there is historical opportunities everywhere. In some communities you can just take a good long walk and see the development of how people built that particular community. We just put up a historical marker in front of a log cabin here in Clarksville and you can tour through and go through a cabin which is about the size of my bedroom here in which a family of five grew up. And yeah, I mean people can get really cynical really fast about things like that. People will say, oh well, they just only care about their phones or the worst thing that the settlers had to deal with was bad WiFi or something like that. But if you don't expose them to that they don't understand it. And this is not something that you pick up in a book. It's not something, I mean to some degree it is but it's something that you can pick up easier by actually walking through it, by like you said, actually touching it, actually smelling it, actually experiencing it. And that is all over the.

I mean and here in Hall County and in Gainesville in mean there are wonderful sites to visit outside of the History Center as well. I would recommend know you start here at the history center, you're going to get a nice broad overview of the region's history. And then you can go downtown to Gainesville and go to Roosevelt Square where President Roosevelt had his speech after the 1936 tornado and see the New Deal actually in Gainesville when you see the markers for the WPA for the rebuilding of City Hall, et cetera. And we're really lucky that downtown Gainesville has kept fortunately, even after the tornado, there was a fair amount of the infrastructure that did last. And of course we have the beautiful homes of Green Street to tour and these types of things. I mean, really going out as a family and wondering together, even if you don't have the answers, wondering with your child is really the activity, the thing to really emphasize with them. Because of course you as a parent, you can stop by the historical markers. You can get the resources, of course, from the Northeast Georgia History Center. But you're not always going to be the topic expert. But to be curious with your child and to encourage those kinds of questions, you can always compare and contrast their experiences. Well, what do you think it would have been like without electricity? I mean, what would you do for fun? And then connect it to your family? Think about what Grandma's told us about what she did as a kid growing up and how she had to make certain meals this way or the games that she would play as a child. Or maybe she learned how to sew these skills that aren't as prevalent in our society these days thanks to technology. It really comes down to that curiosity and building that in a child that I think will really connect them with local history, but also see history as this thing to uncover this thing to really almost be a detective, like, I mean, a historian. When it comes down to it, they're analyzing evidence. And to frame it in that way for a kid. I think that they can also understand that concept that we have clues, we have evidence and that we can analyze it for ourselves to uncover the mystery, so to speak.

Well right. And when you talk about being a detective, one of the things that work that is best about this is you don't have to be 100% right. Speculation and estimation really is a good solution sometimes. And I read another different article that said that one of the ways that a particular teacher, and this was in England wanted to create a sort of connection between her students and the community around them was by looking at the names of streets. You can look at the names of streets and learn so much about your community. In this particular case, they were a town pretty far from the ocean, but so many of their streets were Schooner Street, Clipper Street, that sort of thing. And what the children didn't understand was at a time their community had a very, very strong connection with the trade at the ocean, which none of the students in that class were aware of at the time. So just even things like that. Now, this is where I think you and I approach the idea of local history from two different perspectives, all right? And I mentioned this sometimes on my podcast. And I'm not saying this is the way to do it, but this is the way I learned how to do it, all right? There are opportunities to come out and see local history. Where there's a local history center in Cornelia, Georgia, up by me, we have the Malden House in Clarksville that people can walk through and see how people lived and that sort of thing. Now, history where I grew up, I grew up in New Jersey, and there was a lot of history there. Every major road in New Jersey was a road that George Washington retreated on at some point or another. And there were a lot of Revolutionary War stuff. And we learned that in the car. We learned that from my father pointing stuff out as we drove by. And, yes, it was monotonous, and yes, he was wrong about a lot of things, like George Washington. George Washington was not buried in Grant's tomb. But if you were a Boy Scout in my father's troop, that's what he told us. He asked us who was buried in Grant's tomb. Since we didn't know, he explained it was George Washington. And to that day, there are probably still people from that Boy Scout troop who believe that George Washington was buried in the know. But that's okay. That's okay because there are people now that would take their phones out and look up who's buried in Grant's tomb. Because Grant is a Civil War figure. You don't think of him being buried in York, you know? So the mission that you have at the History Center is bringing people in and letting them learn. And I really believe that. See, the mission I have is taking it to the streets, getting out there. When we take a field trip, I make sure to point out every historical place we pass on the way. And the kids are sick to death of it. By the time we got these poor kids, I had to go on a field trip with to the Consolidated Gold Mines in Deloniga. Oh, yeah. But we had a blast. And I'll tell you what, if one or two kids walked out knowing more about how the gold mine worked, because there is a lot of stuff to fill in. And when you hear it from the tour guide and when you hear it from your teacher, and then you hear it in a conversation on the bus, that stuff starts to stick.

Absolutely. Yeah. And Consolidated goldmine. We love them. They're great friends, and they've done fantastic work over there. And that's another great example of here, is this activity and this place where you can actually step in. It's almost like traveling back in time because you get to do these same activities that an actual gold miner would have done in the same area. And to really make that connection through the activity and creating a memorable experience, really creating a memory is really what it's all about. And I like what you had to say because it's true that ultimately it is okay if that child is not given, let's say you realize, oh, I said the wrong name or the wrong date, ultimately it's about that experience and how the child, the wheels are turning. For that child to think how is life like mine and how is life different from mine in the past? And to have them really exercise that curiosity and those questions is what it comes down to.

Basically just saying this has meaning to it. I see a lot now because when you're playing Pokemon or doing something like that, these things, there isn't a significance that there is in the real world. And we have to give those kids that significance. And that's one of the things that because there is a meaning to these places and really, if you teach them nothing else, teaching your kids that there is a meaning to this place, that there is a significance to this place, that something happened here, you can fill in the details. If they're interested, they'll fill in the details on top. They might not, but if they're interested in it, they might.

Yeah. And I really like offering questions to the kids that are open ended so that they can really consider and reflect on the questions. So when we're going through our programs here at the History Center, it's really not a lot of telling. It is leading the child and the group of children through the best questions to ask about. So something as simple and one of the favorite activities like our historic games and toys that we have for the kids to play with. We start out with the conversation of, well, how do you have fun today? And of course, a lot of that like you're saying, is going to be video games and online activities and very technology heavy things and entertainment. Okay, so we kind of have a starting baseline and then we can gradually work in, well, let's say you didn't have video games or any electricity. How would you have fun? What's one way that you today have fun without those things? And they might mention sports or tag or something that we're getting closer to that historic context and the fact that, oh, well, the games that we're going to play, such as Jump rope, has a long history and there were children your age who this was their idea of fun. And we can go from activities and fun and recreation that they're familiar with and offer them the chance to compare and contrast that. And then we go into big comparisons like their daily life and their chores. So for instance, a really fun activity that we have is actually laundry. Now, I know that many kids are going to say laundry, that does not sound fun. But the second that you get those kids with the colonial era washing machine, quote, unquote, where you've got a big bucket of water, the textiles of the time, and they're having to wring out the clothing with the wooden tool that they use to agitate the water. And then we can take them on that journey of from this activity, we can talk about the role of children and what kind of chores they would do. Maybe you're going to be the one to go get the water and help mom out the different roles and the family structure style of back in the day in history and compare that to their own. So through each of these activities, on the surface, it seems like something that's simply just fun for them. But that's where if you start with that fun and engaging activity and really rely on the child's curiosity to ask questions, really any question that they like with a history expert there to talk to them about it, then they're going to get excited. And we can definitely tell who's going to be the history nerds later in life, if they're not already. But I love seeing the difference between when some of those kids who may not be immediately interacting when they come in for a field trip at the History Center, once they see their friends doing the activity and getting excited and making these connections together, it becomes a very fun and memorable experience for them. Even if it just comes down to washing laundry.

And this is our culture. This is a culture that has been in place in this area for thousands of years, and we're losing it. We're slipping away. And we see this in schools. We have children who will come to school who'll be in second grade, who have no idea who the three Billy Goats Gruff were. They don't know the story of the gingerbread man above and beyond from the Shrek movies. These are cultural touchstones that we've had in our society forever. And I believe that when we start losing those cultural connections, we start pulling away from each other. I think that a lot of problems we have with polarization not just between individuals, but also between countries or between states or between political beliefs, is just the simple fact of the matter that we are losing those things that connect us, those things that pull us together, those things that we all know, those things we all draw upon.

Yeah, I can definitely sense that. And I feel like what history can offer folks is that, like you were saying, it's our shared history. You can go as many thousands or even millions of years back as you want. We are all human when it comes down to it, and there are so many different things for us to learn from our past. I mean, there's so much to be proud of, of course, and that's something that I feel like for my personal opinion, I feel a little bit of a loss of that pride and that shared pride, I could say, in our country. And I think that if people had an understanding of history and its complexities and its nuances and being able to say, look at where we are today and look at where we came from, if we zoom out and allow ourselves to take a look at the time that has passed in the grand scheme of things. How much progress we've made, the challenges we've overcome, the people who inspire us, the people who we can learn from their mistakes. All of that to say is that I think that a great lesson that I've learned here at the History Center as I become more interested and deeply passionate about the history education, is that removing judgment of the past seems to be a good first step. If we can really remove our own biases and perception of the world and allow ourselves to think more objectively about history and ask the same questions that we're encouraging those kids to ask and compare and contrast our own lives and also consider in the future what will future generations judge us for? Or what ideas or do you have right now that will later be harshly judged? It's very hard to say. But keeping that perspective in mind, I think, allows you to really appreciate the fact that history is a collection of events from flawed human beings and inspirational, amazing flawed humans. And there's such a beauty in that story. And yes, it has very harsh violence in it. It has tragedy in it. It also has incredible stories of resilience and progress and community and coming together and really fighting for what we want the world to be. Something that I really hope that we can see in future generations and I hope that we can at the History Center here instill is that shared appreciation of our collective history because that can bond us. It can bring us together and allow us to think about the past, to better understand our present and to think what do we want our future to look like and how do we get there? And I think that has to start at a young age to really, again, incite that curiosity about history so that these kids are prepared with the tools to analyze it, to interpret it for themselves, to come to conclusions. That they can support with their own reflections and evidence and analysis and have conversation in a way that honors the fact that we are the present. People looking back and judging, oftentimes judging the past. But if we remove that judgment, I think it can help remove judgment in the present as well. It's not going to be a save all, but it's such an important piece of education and just a foundation of living in a shared community that has so many different cultures and so many different ties to history about how people got so. You know, here at the history center, we really do share a diverse array of stories, from those of the enslaved in Georgia, from the early Cherokee and the Creek and from the settlers that came here. Everyone from the Scots Irish to the Salzburgers in Germany. The German Salzburgers in Savannah? Really trying to expose kids to these stories through activities and engaging their curiosity that way. But I'm there with you. I do hope that we can find more community in honoring and talking about and reflecting about our own history, hopefully in a more objective and neutral tone, I would say really trying to actively remove that present day modern person's perception because don't know what we don't know already.

Yes, right. Because we are so different from our ancestors. I mean, even people who lived at the turn of the century, not the turn of this particular century, but the turn of the last century, we are so very different. And this is something I reflect on a lot when I read. A person living in Georgia in 1840 would find a lot in common with someone living in France in 1650. They would have a lot of common ground right off the bat. Now, someone who was born in, say, 1900, saw the first airplane when they were seven, and saw the moon landing when they were 69. So we are such different people that we have to work harder to find common ground with those who came before us.

Absolutely. And that's a good point to make, that ourselves in this present moment are in a particularly what moment in history isn't particularly interesting. But like you said, we are in the midst of who knows what kind of technological boom or huge advances. I mean, we're talking right now. There's conversations about AI and how that's going to change things. But you're totally right that for us, our perspective is going to be a totally different world, really, a totally different reality and understanding of concepts and what the world is and how connected we are.

It's going to be like, my daughter is 27 years old, and she and I see the world very differently now. Her children are going to see me as a Martian. They're not going to understand my perspective unless I teach it to them, unless I explain it to them. And that's what we're both trying to do. We're both trying to make sure that that connection to the past isn't lost because it could get buried so easily. Liv, I want to thank you so much for coming on. And could you just give us one more plug for the History Center, please?

Absolutely, Jim. This was such a pleasure to talk about. And, yes, please, folks, come on down to the Northeast Georgia History Center. We're located on the Brunell University campus here in Gainesville, Georgia. And you can visit our website for more details, that's WW negahc.org. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and we have a great YouTube channel as well, with a lot of different video lectures as well as some living history programs. So we hope to see you here soon, and thank you so much, Jim. I really appreciate the chance to talk about all of this.

It was wonderful talking to you. Thank you. And also, if you're in my area that's Haversham County, there are opportunities. And also Halloween is coming up, and I know a few counties will have historical tours that you can go on and learn more about your community and maybe even hear some ghost stories. So keep an eye out for that.

Then again is a production of the Northeast Georgia History Center in Gainesville, Georgia. Our podcast is edited by media producer Juada Rodriguez. Our digital and on site programs are made possible by the Ada May Ivester Education Center. Please join us next week for another episode of Then Again.