Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Then Again, I'm Liba Beecham, director of operations at the Northeast Georgia History Center. And today we have a very special episode because we at the Northeast Georgia History center have been invited to Fort Frederica National Monument to invite folks at St. Simon's island to join us in a wonderful living history program, a day of living history at Fort Frederica. And we're going to share all the details, all about it with you. Today. I have two very special guests. We have Park Ranger Phil officer, and our living history interpreter, Richard Burke, who portrays James Oglethorpe himself. Thank you so much, Phil, for being here today. And Richard, thank you for having me. So the event on Saturday, December 16, is going to be at Fort Frederica on St. Simon's island, and I've had the chance to go there myself. And it is a fantastic historic site, a wonderful museum, chock full of artifacts, but also really fun and interactive parts of the exhibits for kids as well, which I really enjoyed. But I think one of the most special parts is that I knew I was walking on the same ground as James Oglethorpe and Mary Musgrove herself, two historic figures that we feature prominently here through our educational programs. And so today, I wanted to share more about this really exciting event. Hopefully, our listeners, especially those who are down in the St. Simon's area, can make it to the event, and if not, please share with any friends that do. But first of all, Phil, could you just share for any listeners who aren't familiar with Fort Frederica, what is Fort Frederica and its historic significance to Georgia's history?

Absolutely. Be happy to. So, Fort Frederica is a British colonial site that dates to 1736 here in coastal Georgia. We say that the town itself has a 20 year history in this community. But realistically, of course, the history of the island stretches back far before the British even got here and long after the colony became the state of Georgia. But the time frame that we kind of focus our attention on more often than not is the 20 years of 1736 to 1756, which is the height of British colonialization here in Georgia. This was a town that was actually built by James Edward Oglethorpe and the colonists to act as a military fortification to safeguard against Spanish interests here in the colony of Georgia. And they actually put the fort, fun fact. 4 miles south of Georgia's border. So, technically speaking, Fort Federica, when it's founded, it's not even in Georgia, but it's a military post that plays a key role in the defense of the colony here. It plays a key role. During the War of Jenkins'er between Britain and Spain, James Edward Oglethorpe had a house here on St. Simon's Island, a small little plantation farm that he had established just outside of the town's walls. And this was a community where 1000 people lived, worked and tried to make a life in a new world that for some of them was completely foreign to anything they would have experienced in Europe. So it's a really interesting place overall, and we're really excited about celebrating the general's birthday next weekend. James Oklahoma's birthday is the 22 December, and so we're having our celebration six days early, but coincides with the holiday season. And it's a good way to kind of wrap it all together in a nice little bow.

Yeah. And I was so excited that you all reached out to us, especially because you all had found out about our living history programs, about James Oglethorpe and Mary Musgrove, through our podcast. So it's great to have you on the podcast to talk about that, but I know that Fort Frederica also has a huge focus on living history. And so could you share what kind of programs Fort Frederica already has offered in the past and continues to offer when it comes to living history?

Yeah. So we try our best to provide, as close as we can, a window to the past of what Frederica would have looked like in a general sense, because we're always still constantly learning new information about how these people live their daily lives. So currently we offer blacksmithing demonstrations. We have a blacksmith forge here on site. We offer cooking demonstrations, cannon artillery demonstrations. We actually did one of those about two weeks ago. We do musket demonstrations fairly regularly, demonstrating the life of the 42nd Regiment afoot that was actually stationed and garrisoned here at Fort Federica. And we, as of last year, started doing dugout canoe demonstrations where we actually are digging out a log in the style that they would have done at that point in time to kind of show just how difficult daily life could have been to our modern sensibilities and give some perspective for people to get an idea of what a daily life would be for someone here in the 1730s.

Oh, that sounds so cool. And it really speaks to how you can immerse people of all ages with history through living history. And we, at the Northeast Georgia History center, we've had such a big focus on living history because we see the response to it. People really are engaged and again, all ages. And so to have professionals like Richard, who are not only excellent performers and actors, but also extremely knowledgeable of the characters themselves is such a wonderful skill set to have, and it's a really unique skill set that any museums that are going to have high quality living history programs, I want to be there and I want to be a part of it. And I know that people are surprised by it because I think that you don't exactly know what to expect if you're going to meet a historic character. But then you just get immersed in it, and it really is like you're meeting James Oglethorpe.

Yeah.

So, Richard, I want to know. You came to the History center portraying several different characters for us, but James Oglethorpe has really been a big focus for you. And for folks who may not know much about James Oglethorpe during your interpretation of him, what do you want the kids or the people to always take away? Whether it's know, facts and figures aSide, what do you want them to feel leaving that experience?

I want them to remember that Oglethorpe, while he was born into a life of privilege, what he really wanted to do was basically create a new society where they did away with a whole class structure, which was everywhere in Britain. I mean, everything that a person could do in their life was determined by what their class was. And Oglethorpe wanted to create a whole new society that just did away with that.

And that surprises people, I'm sure. Because again, like you said, here's a man coming from a very privileged background we think of as England, as know, a very strong colonial power, almost conquesting kind of power in a lot of ways. But here's James Oglethorpe, someone who has a reform mindset and a much more progressive mindset, especially as we're going into this Enlightenment era of different philosophical ideas. And he really seems to engage with that. And so for Colonial Georgia's, for our history in Georgia, I think that's something to really emphasize, is that we started with these ideals, and that's something that I think surprises people that may not be as familiar with. Phil, I'm sure you could speak to that as well. I mean, y'all, of course, cover General Oglethorpe quite a lot. And what are those other aspects of Fort Frederica's history, and especially General Oglethorpe's history that you like to emphasize through programs?

It's a great question. Most of our visitors to Fort Frederica, when they walk in through the door, I think it's a fairly accurate statement to say that most people have never heard of Fort Federica prior to entering Fort Federica. And I take that less as a statement on Georgia's impact or Joe Oglethorpe's impact upon this world and more just how we understand and what we know of colonial history, what we learn through it, about it in our own. You know, here we have a site that played a huge, significant role in the shaping of Oglethorpe's grand plan, which was this colony where the worthy poor would be given an opportunity to literally build themselves up and pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. Or as I like to say, pull yourselves up by your bootstraps once you make the boots.

Yeah.

Because this was an opportunity for people to come out of debtors prison in some instance and actually make a fresh start for themselves here in the New World. In this colony, named after the king of England, George II, we commonly get asked about the name of the town, like, why Rica seems like an OD name. Was it a Spanish name? No, it was actually named after Crown Prince Frederick, George's son, and they feminized it to Frederica. And I like to point out, because people will ask, well, that seems silly. Why would they call it Frederica and not Frederick? And I say, well, why are you standing in Georgia and not George?

I love that.

But nonetheless, we try to always point out the contributions that Oglethorpe, as well as the everyday colonists, actually made in this landscape. What were the achievements of everyday people who took a chance and took a six week long voyage across the Atlantic Ocean to build themselves up from nothing? And Oglethorpe, who did come from something, was taking a huge risk in coming here and helping to actually establish this colony, a risk that ultimately played out. But it was a big question mark, I'm sure, in a lot of people's minds at the time of whether or not this was going to be a success or an abject failure. And thankfully for us, it was a success. And it's really kind of cool to be a part of telling that story and painting the picture for our visitors that may not know that. So it's a fun story to kind of be able to reiterate to people and help to give some perspective.

Yeah. And I know, know, Richard, you portray Oglethorpe before he leaves Georgia and after he leaves Georgia, depending the. The program. And so it's really interesting to have that point in time that you're speaking from not knowing the end result and not knowing the future. And so I want to know, when you're portraying Oglethorpe, how has it evolved for it, especially as you continue to do research and learn more about him? I mean, how do you determine what his personality is like when you're portraying him, how he's going to approach an audience? Where do those choices come from?

Well, first I look at, before he came to Georgia, he was, of course, a member of Parliament. So public speaking was something that he did just about every day. So his first several years in Parliament, he was pretty much a backbencher. Just kind of watched and absorbed it all. And one thing that has always kind of struck me is just failure never seems to enter his mind. He's so confident that once he gets here, he is going to establish what in his mind is the best colony in America. He is just so confident. That really drove him. And he also saw a huge need that nobody else is going to fill this need. So, by George, I will.

Yeah, I love that combination of confidence, but also compassion. And something that I really take away from James Oglethorpe's relationship with other people in general is his relationship with Mary Musgrove and Tomachi, the Yamacra Creek chief. And, Phil, if you could give us a little information, just an overview of. Because we're also going to be meeting Mary Musgrove during this event at Fort Frederica. And she was, of course, a fascinating, historic figure that was so vital to the success of the colony. If you could just introduce her to our.

This is. This is very exciting for us, as I'm sure it is for you guys as well, to actually have someone here to portray Mary Musgrove and talk about her contributions in the Georgia colony. I think a lot of times it can be very easy to overlook the contributions of Native Americans in and around the colonial story, or it's a very particular story that we hear almost in some cases seemingly combative between the two. And here we have in Georgia, a completely different example of that. We have an example where a whole society of people, the Yamacra and the Creek peoples, are actually working with the British through large, in part through the contributions of Mary Musgrove, who was a Native American woman, had a Native American mother and an English father, and as such, is fluent in both English and in the Creek languages of the area, and is able to help James Oglethorpe to communicate back and forth between the Creek peoples, namely Tomocichi, the chieftain of the Yamakra people. And without her contributions, and without the contributions of Tomocichi and the relationships built up between the British, the Yamakra, Mary Musgrove relaying between those two, we wouldn't have Savannah where it is today. Savannah is built upon or downtown Savannah built upon what is known as Yamakra Bluff. That's literally downtown Savannah, given to the British, not taken, given to the British by the Yamacra people. Based off these interactions that Mary Musgrove was able to help facilitate. She was here at Fort Federica. We know she was here at Fort Federica. We know that she stayed in one of the houses here for about three or four weeks. It might have been actually a little longer than that. And she actually honeymooned in that house because it was her third marriage that she actually celebrated here in her house, her previous two husbands having passed away, and most of the town went to her wedding. And so it's exciting to have someone be here, to be able to tell that story without us having to be, hey, here's someone's story that we're going to share. For them. To actually have someone of the Native American community here to actually share that is very special.

And, folks, for listeners who have known about the History center for a while, Nicole Castareno, our wonderful living history interpreter, is going to be portraying Mary Musgrove as she does here at the history center as well. And Nicole is a very busy professional actress. She's actually on set right now, but she'll be joining us in Fort Federica to portray Mary Musgrove and to also share about her role as a businesswoman. I mean, she was a trader, a tradeswoman in a very unique role, taking more of a lead in that business. And so you'll get to see the types of items that she would have had at her trading post. And she can share more about her own life story because so much, it's almost like her entire childhood prepared her for this role, because, like Phyllis said, she understands the Yamakra Creek culture. She understands the language. But she also has been observing her own father, who was a fur trader since she was an adolescent. And so learning from him and then losing her father at what I think it was around the age of, like, 15 or so, and getting married young, of course, not unusual for this time, but just thinking about this young woman in survival mode and taking all of that, she's learned and observed, and it comes to fruition in her playing this extremely important role that is really going to change the trajectory for not only the colony of Georgia, but the state of Georgia. So, Phil, could you tell us, our listeners, especially those who can make it to Saturday, December 16, at Fort Frederica, what programs are we going to see there that day?

Absolutely. So our event that day actually starts at 10:00 in the morning. You're welcome to get here earlier than that. Park opens at 09:00 but our event starts at ten. We will be having several different things happening throughout the course of the day. The first thing of note will actually be working hand in hand with Richard, who at 1030 will be there to talk about the life of James Oglethorpe. From Oglethorpe, it's always a fun experience to have someone relating their story. We have a town tour at eleven and two that we are in that talk about Oglethorpe's overall plan and the great plan for Georgia and how Frederica fits into that. At 1230, we're going to have Mary Musgrove speak ahead of the 01:00 Cheers to the general, in which we're going to be toasting with some tea that we're actually offering out of our park bookstore. We'll be writing tea and cookies and some cider to the participants and the visitors here as a nice little spit of holiday cheer. We will also be doing musket demonstrations throughout the course of the day. And I will be dressed as a soldier, but I'll be doing a presentation, actually a cooking demonstration, in which case we'll be talking about what soldiers are actually eating to kind of give some reference point between what our holiday traditions are here today, in which we may have a turkey or a ham or a roast beef and sides, and what is a soldier who is living here at Fort Federica gearing up for war? What's in their bag? What's in their ration pack? And spoiler alert, it's not much, but nonetheless, it'd be kind of a good way to kind of showcase what the average person here had available to them for this particular special time of year in which Oglethorpe would be toasted for his birthday, but also to give some perspective for the everyday soldier. And then at 333 o'clock, I should say, we're actually doing a taping of this show. So we're really excited to have that.

Yeah, I'm really excited about. We'll do a live recording of a podcast episode there. Nicole will be there as well. We'll have Richard there to share and the park rangers as well, so that we can all share just our love of living history and the experiences that it can offer. And so I really hope that if any of our listeners are able to make it to Fort Frederica on Saturday, December 16, for those events starting at 10:00 a.m. Going all the way to 03:00 p.m. That day and you can meet us and see us. Meet James Ogle, meet Mary Musgrove, learn some fascinating history about our state when it was a colony. And Phil, is there any other information folks should know about or links we should include in the description? Do they need to get their tickets online or just show up?

So we are 100% free of charge. So there is actually no tickets necessary. Feel free to walk on through our door, say hi to us. We'll smile right back at you and wave you right through to the event. So we are open to the public free of charge to anyone. Hope to see everyone there.

Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for joining us, guys, and thank you to Phil and Fort Federica and the team there for inviting us. It's such an exciting opportunity to travel to such historic locations and to learn even more, I'm sure, about James Oglethorpe and Mary Musgrove and the context of the many people who live there. And so we're really appreciative and excited to join in this great event.

Yeah, we're very happy to have you and thank you for coming down and be a wonderful experience.

All right, we'll see you there, hopefully. And please stay tuned for another episode of Then again, we'll be back next week.

Then again is a production of the Northeast Georgia History center in Gainesville, Georgia. Our podcast is edited by media producer Juada Rodriguez. Our digital and on site programs are made possible by the ADA May ivester Education Center. Please join us next week for another episode of Then again.