Hello, everyone, and thank you for listening to, then again, the podcast of the Northeast Georgia History Center. I am Marie Bartlett, the director of the Ada May Ivester Education center. Here today I have with me mache Smooch and Carolyn Clark. Thank you so much for being with me today.

Me, of course. Glad to be.

So today we are going to be talking about the maserate folk dance ensemble, which is formed here in Atlanta. And I just was wondering, can you tell me a little bit how your dance ensemble came to be?

Of course. Yeah. I originally came to Atlanta in January of 2022, and I just love dancing so much that I was like, all right, I need this to be a thing here. I decided to form something like it, and I formed Mazuri. I actually got in contact with a couple know local eastern european dance studios and decided on a spot, the Volga Dance Academy in Doraville, in order to hold our practices. And it was really kind of trial and error to see what dates would work with everyone, what times, and to see who we can get. But I think overall right now, we have a fantastic group full of really fun people and people that just love to get together, like once, twice a week and just dance.

That's awesome. So you came, you wanted to dance, and you made it happen.

Exactly.

So can you tell us a little bit about your background in dance?

Sure. So I started when I was pretty young. My parents actually signed me up for a very small local group in the suburb of Chicago known as Medina. The group's name was ever since mean, they kind of signed me up, kind of, you know, this is kind of like a fun recreational thing. But I just went, like heads down. I loved it. I just completely fell in love with the rhythms, the music, everything that really came with it. And from then on, I've been dancing with plenty of different groups, and not just like polish groups, but also I danced with ukrainian groups and czech group and even went back to direct the same group that I had joined when I was younger. And then I moved to Salt Lake City when I was 18. There's still quite a bit of polish people, but there wasn't a group. And so that's where I had my first experience of founding and directing a group. That group was known as the Karpati polish folk dance Ensemble. And at one point, I directed that group for seven years, and at one point, that group had about 50 people in it, which was a massive accomplishment. And in fact, that coincided with 100 year anniversary of polish independence. And so we had a gigantic gala concert, invited a couple of our dance group friends from Tucson, Arizona, the laconic dance group from Tucson, we just held a massive concert and it was such a success. But about two years ago I decided that due to my career prospects and know, just due to climate and everything, I decided to make move down to Atlanta and know really kind of embrace the scene here.

Awesome. So can you tell us what some of your favorite dances are, the history of the dances? I would love to hear what some of your favorite dances, both of you, what your favorite dances are and why. And also if you could tell us a little bit of the history of those dances as well.

Of course. Yeah, I'll let Caroline start with her favorite dances. Caroline? Sorry.

Well, I'd love to pick up on a few things mache said because I think what I bring to the conversation is just a breadth of dance experience and studies in dance. I've immersed my life in it and I was interested in what he said in terms of coming to Atlanta and making the group happen and making the classes happen because he loves to dance. And I have seen this in many different places with many different kinds of dance people. It's part of what they love to do. They want to continue to do that kind of dance. So they need to start teaching in order to have the other people to dance with and actually wrote a paper about this. But that's neither here nor there. I think this is a common occurrence in many different aspects of life as we try to find people to do the activities we love with and that make us feel whole. So I don't know if that's podcast worthy, but I just have to say these things because I'm a teacher.

Absolutely. I think you're great for the podcast.

Well, I'm relatively new to polish and ukrainian and eastern european dance. I began taking lessons with mache, really because of serendipity. I saw the listing cross posted with dance Atlanta on Facebook, dance ATL and there were some of the first opportunities and classes to come along my radar since the pandemic. So I didn't really get to dance for at least a year. During the pandemic, all the classes were closed and they were at a time that I could attend. And I have always been someone that I will try any form of dance. I love dance. I have taken many different kinds of dance in my lifetime. So I thought, sure, I'll give it a shot and I'll probably like it. And sure enough, it was really fun. Taking classes with mache is a, it's, he's super kind, which is a lovely quality to have in a teacher. So it was terrific to take those classes and start up again. I had so much fun. And honestly, the thing that gives me the most pleasure about any kind of dance is dancing with other people in person. I could not stand dancing on zoom and taking classes on Zoom. It was the best we had, but it wasn't great. So just being in a room with people. Studies have been done. The research already exists that dancing in person with other people is a powerful way to combat stress, anxiety, depression. It's good for your cognitive functions. It staves off dementia. It's good for you physically. There is no other activity that's better for you, mind, body and soul than dancing with other people. The research is there. Peer reviewed, double blind, control group research, hard research. So, getting back to Majuri, we started with poca. Love the poca. Super fun. But what I really love the most is chardash, and the reason is because of my background in ballet, of all things. But there's a very strong crossover between eastern european traditional dances, so called folk dances, and russian ballet. When ballet was thriving in imperial Russia at the end of the 19th century, there was a lot of interest at the same time, choreographically with these folk dances. So you see a lot of ballets like Raymonda, a lot of the big ones. I want to say sleeping beauty, but I might be wrong on that. Anyway, they have a chardash section in the ballet, and I actually grew up doing those dances in a ballet context. And so even from a young age, I was doing chardash with these red go go boots on stage, and it was a balletified version. It was traditional from the ballet choreography, but I had familiarity to it. So when we started doing different kinds of dance dances, and especially the tardash, I was all over that. I was clicking my heels like nobody's business and dominating, if I do say so myself.

For some of our listeners who might not be as familiar with ballet or not have that much of a ballet background, could you kind of explain the movements that go with the chardash section?

I'll let the expert do that. I want to say one of the great pleasures of working with Mache is that it's his expertise, because I'm very picky about my teachers, because I know my stuff, and he knows more than I do, which is.

Thank you.

Fabulous.

I don't think that's true.

Every single class that I take, I learn something from Machie, because he knows the background of all the dances. When we talk about the cultural connections. We can maybe talk more about that aspect of it, but he is an expert, and it just really feels like a very quote, unquote, authentic experience.

That's amazing.

Yes.

I would love to hear some of your favorite dances and the background behind them and why and the movements. If you could take us through that for our.

Of course. Yeah. Yeah. So I kind of want to backtrack to Carolyn's description of the chavdash, which is actually originally a hungarian dance. And the way that it actually entered into Poland and introduced itself to polish dance and mainly in the southern regions, was through the Austrio Hungarian Empire and the army. And essentially what had happened is that the Austro Hungarian Empire had offered to these people in the know, hey, we know, good, good working conditions. And after a while, there was also a draft. And so the men from these villages went to the army, and then they worked with the Hungarians. They were the Austrians, and they brought these dances back to their villages. And so, for example, in the Lemko suite that we do in Masore, for example, those men were sent off to the austro hungarian army, and they came back and they used this dance to kind of show off to the girls. Like, hey, check out these moves that we learned, the. Like, check out how masculine we. You know, this is how we learned to dance with those. Like, we're going to bring this back here. So really, it's kind of interesting as well, and in different parts of Poland as well, because that was from the east, in the west part, in, for example, our chess and dances, the thing that ends those is our tardash, slonsky or silecian tardash, which starts out very slow with very small movements, and then all of a sudden starts going, yum. And all of a sudden starts really kind of lively, I guess, circle kind of polka. But in particular, polish folk dance and ukrainian folk dance can be classified into two different groups, the first being national dances and the second being regional dances. The difference here is that national dances were dances that really appealed to the national character, dances that were danced in polish salons. And in Poland, there are five national dances. And Ukraine, there is the one, the hopak, which is meant to be the character of Ukraine.

That's so interesting. So do we know how they came to be? Those regional dances were developed? Those national dances were developed, yes.

So the national dances really, for the most part, I guess about three out of five of them kind of developed in the salon. The five polish national dances are the Polonnaise, the mazul, the oberic, the kuyaviak and the Krakoviak. And if you don't mind, I'll just go into detail into these a little bit, because I just love studying the national dances and the history behind them.

I think that's incredible. Our listeners and I would love that, of course.

So the Polonnaise is the oldest polish dance, and the earliest trace of it came in 14 six and appeared in a silecian chronicle. Silesha exists in the southwest of Poland in that little quadrant. And so when they were having a ball there, someone just happened to write it down. And then in 1574, someone else mentioned the Polonnaise during the coronation of Henry Valra Valwa, in which this guest actually described it. It wasn't known as the Polonnaise at that point. It was known as the polish dance. And that is how essentially the nobility and the bourgeoisie described it at that point. And then, I mean, anytime before the 18th century, there were numerous references of the Polonnaise coming from accounts of pretty much like a whole bunch of foreigners that stayed at the polish court. According to their descriptions, it was a walking dance with plenty of boughs, with plenty of accents, with plenty of, like, really, it was meant to either open or close a ball to kind of greet your guests, to kind of say hello, kind of look at who I'm dancing with, this kind of thing. And really quite interesting, the people that came to these balls really dressed in their best ball gowns for this ceremonial dance. The tempo is pretty moderate, and really, there's kind of, like, dignified attitude, like a form of chivalry in this dance. And really, I think it's really quite interesting. And there's still ongoing research going on in Poland through all kinds of instructors and researchers to try to figure out what was the Polonnaise between this time period? What was it between the 18th century? Was it 19th century? Because as a dance, naturally, between these hundreds of years can evolve. And in fact, even I learned the last time I was in Poland this last summer, that there's even some deliberation between this one step that we do in our dance group, in which we kind of make a window with our arms between pairs, because that, according to some historians, was more prevalent in a minouette rather than polonnaise. But the truth we're not sure, and.

I would like to interject here, sorry, that Marie knows all about the window hold because she does that hold in Atlanta historic dance for, I know, Duke of Kent's waltz, but I've done that hold in the minuet so I think there could be some cross pollination there. But that's not my area of expertise.

I didn't know it was called the window hold, though. I always just was like, it's the more traditional waltz hold, because that was the first waltz hold was when you have your hands up over your arm, of course your hands, but you have your arms over your head. For the walt, my husband and I actually did that as part of our weding dance, too. And for our listeners who are maybe having trouble visualizing this, that waltz hold is done in the live action version of Cinderella, while the prince and Cinderella are waltzing. If that gives anybody a cultural reference, maybe that'll help them visualize it. But I would love to maybe dive in a little bit more to this idea of having national dances. Caroline, if you could perhaps give us some insight into that, because it has to help with the national identity of a group of people as well as the enjoyment of the people doing it. And I'm intrigued by that because I don't think in America we have a national dance.

We don't, and we should not. Now, I will say that there have been many attempts to create a national dance for the United States, but it's a very tricky prospect, because whose dance will it be? We are a nation of so many different cultures, as any nation is really. And who gets to decide which dance that will be? Because there are agendas behind those kinds of decisions. And there have been numerous attempts to make the quote unquote square dance the national dance of the United States. It is the state dance of Georgia.

Oh, I didn't know we had a state dance.

Yes, I think the square dance is the official state dance of about 16 states. Now, that initiative was brought forward by Henry Ford, the automaker. So there are reasons for that, and I won't get into that today. That's our next podcast.

That sounds like a wonderful podcast. I'm ready.

Don't get me started about Henry Ford and square dance. But the gist of that one is know there can't really be a national dance for the United States. However, that's because of our situation. It's very important for some cultural groups to identify themselves through dancing as a cultural identity marker. So different cultures have ways of coming together, and that can include music, it can include food or a particular way of wearing clothing, and it can also include dance. And for some cultures, there's no distinction between dancing and music or dancing. And know we have that distinction right now for us in this conversation in the United States, dances are cultural identity markers for many different people, and in some cases, they can be forms of resistance. Area has been taken over by an invading force. You might not be able to do these dances out in public, but in secret. People continue to do them as a way of preserving not only movement, but also language, clothing, music, food, a reason to get together, and a way of relating with each other. So they can serve as a form of resistance, but they can also serve as a form of know. This is something that I grew up doing, and I find myself again when I do it. Now. I find it fascinating to work with mache and Majeri dance company because we have started including ukrainian dance, and now Mache is teaching polish and ukrainian dance to adults and children. And the ukrainian community is really finding a sense of comfort in that shared culture. But also people who are not ukrainian are finding a way to show their support and connection for the ukrainian people. So it's a very powerful way of people coming together to celebrate, share culture and connect with other people.

And that brings us into my next question perfectly, because I wanted to talk about what you wear while performing these bulk dances.

Yes, really, it's a giant. That's a really good question, because, like I said earlier, polish dances subdivided into two parts. You've got your national dances and your regional dances. Poland itself has over a hundred different micro regions. And based off that, the costumes are all different. It was really based off a number of things. Either a religion, b, who they were most recently taken over by, C, the geographical divide and a bunch of other topics. Even two villages by river can have two different dances and two different costumes. And we see evidence of that. For example, in eastern Poland, in the villages of Bugorai and the Tarnogrut, la Saviaza people. And they argue between themselves all the time, like, is this dance ours? This dance yours? I see it all the time. And so for some of the national dances, for example, the Polonnaise and the Masera, you have to go back to your historical roots. These are mostly salon dances danced by aid, the nobility. And so you can either wear the polish nobility outfits or the polish legionnaires, who, sorry, the officers of the polish legions of the napoleonic era, when Napoleon came to Poland, freed the country for a period of, I believe it was about 15 to 20 years. In fact, the country was so entranced by Napoleon, the French, that even now he's in our national anthem, essentially the costumes of the french, french army, Polish. The polish legions from that army stayed in the culture. And that's another thing. That you could dance that. The Polonnaise and the Maserati, the Obedic and the Quiaviac, two more national dances, both originate from Masovia and Kuyabe, which are in central Poland. And traditionally, what you see polish dance groups dressed in for these are dresses and costumes from the village of pretty much probably one of the most famous costumes that you'll see from Poland. You'll see like a black corset with some beautifully embroidered flowers, and then almost like a rainbow skirt, the black trim and embroidery around base there, too. It's just such a beautiful costume that a lot of these dance groups do take it and perform these two dances with them. With the last national dance, the Krakoviak, which is probably the most patriotic of the national dances. The dance itself comes from the city of Krakow, which is in southern central Poland, which is the cultural capital of Poland. And this dance was originally only danced by people who lived in the city of Krakow and the surrounding suburbs. However, due to two major people, you had todayus Kashushko, and then you had Kashmir's Pulaski, who shares some heritage here in Georgia, fighting alongside Washington and ultimately dying near Savannah. And due to this patriotic nature of these two fighters, the polish people, well, Kashewsko was alive and was able to come back to Poland fighting various insurrections due to these people. Essentially, the character of this dance formed all across Poland because it was deemed that if Koschewsko can help the United States claim its independence, then he can do the same here in Poland. And so because he was from Krakow, these dances kind of exploded. And it was really kind of like a national kind of cultural phenomenon. Namely, this dance is the only one that's done in two, four out of all of the five national dances. But going back to our regional dances, yes, like I said, we have a giant majority of costumes that can be worn. They were primarily wool, but also depends on the region, what kind of textiles and what kind of trading routes also were going through that city. Because, for example, some major trading posts in the south, basically trading posts like, for example, the city of. They had, I guess, traders from Turkey and Iran and everywhere else where they had access to gold thread, they had access to just some really nice stuff. And that's reflected in the costumes as well.

Do you have a favorite costume to wear while performing?

That's such a hard question. I love them all. However, let me get back to you on that.

Okay.

I love boots for the women. We wear different shoes depending on the different dances and the regions and it's taken very seriously because, again, these costumes are really connected to people's lives and cultures, and they have meaning. And I'm spitballing here, if there's a particular flower that grows in a particular region, then that would be on the costuming. But if it appeared to somewhere else, it's a different costume, it would be inappropriate. But I do love. We have these black lace up boots that are black with red laces. And I love clicking my heels in those. But there are these shoes from mountainous regions which are flat, sort of leather. I wouldn't say sandals, but they're flat and they're leather. And those are the shoes that are worn, correct me if I'm wrong, mache by the people in those more mountainous regions. And I can't click my heels in those because of the way they're constructed. So it does affect the movement, right?

Absolutely. Yeah. Those shoes known as kirta or an ukrainian postali were meant for the mountains because, I mean, realistically, you really couldn't walk up a mountain in heels. You wouldn't want to. The shoes reflected the environment and essentially what kind of materials you had around you as well. Sometimes those are made of pigskin. Sometimes they were made of cowhide. And even occasionally, this is one thing we don't wear. You wear really thick wool socks with that and almost like a leather string that kind of goes around your, I guess, attaches to that shoe and goes up to kind of really reinforce that shoe being on there.

That's so cool. Costuming and historical fashion and folk costuming. I just love all of that. So to hear all of the different things about, it's so specific to the region, the time, the place, the resources, I think that's incredibly fascinating. Now, I was wondering, for our listeners, can you tell us some of the main differences between the folk dances that you do and then some, perhaps what we would consider, quote unquote ballroom dance that we see kind of like on Dancing with the Stars because some of the same words have kind of been thrown around like polka. So I was just wondering if you could kind of give us. Why is it different?

So I think there's a lot of similarities. Of course, there's partner dancing, especially in terms of national dances. There is more poise, there is more character, more kind of like, you have to be rigid with the rules. You have to be in terms of folk dances in these regions. It is more rowdy. It's not something that would be accepted on a ballroom floor. For example, the obedica, in terms of national dance. That one never actually made it on the salon because it was deemed as just too rowdy and nobility. Couldn't really find a way to tone it down. Although it is a fantastic dance, it's feverish, it's so fast, it's the turns, everything. It really is beautiful. But they are more kind of show. The men kind of show more of a manly kind of power. You throw your weight around, whereas in these national dances, really, the men's focus is to show off the dexterity and their temperament versus in folk dance, you dance because you like this girl, you want to show off, you want to, but in a way that's like, here, come dance with me. We're going to have a good time, but without a whole lot of rules that apply to ballroom.

Now, could you let our listeners know where they could see your group perform and see these dances come to life themselves?

Of course, yeah. So we have a number of performances coming up. Later this year, we're headed down to Houston, Texas, to perform at the Polish Folk Dance association of America's 40th anniversary gala. We belong to this organization since last year, and really, it's a fantastic organization full of dance groups from the US and Canada who all care about polish folk dance. And we meet together like once or twice a year for workshops, for parties, really for a good time. And for the 40th anniversary this year, we're presenting two dances on their main stage alongside about maybe eight or nine different groups.

That sounds amazing. And our listeners come from all over the country, so it sounds like you're going all over, you're going all over the southeast. So hopefully that's right. No matter where our listeners are, even if they're out of state, they still might have a chance to see you. Are there any other things that you were, ah, I wanted to say this, and I didn't get a chance to moments or any questions you wished I would have asked to get that information?

Not really. Caroline looked like she had something to say just a little bit ago.

Always have something to. You know, what I think is so wonderful is that these dances are living practices. So even though the roots of them, we can say, oh, this comes from the 19th century, this comes from the 18th century, this comes from the 1920s in Warsaw. These are living traditions that some people might be more interested in the historical elements. Some people are just interested, and some people just enjoy it. This really came home for me when Machie took us to Canada in the spring. We went to a festival there, let's say. And there were a lot of different groups performing different kinds of dances. And then there was a special dinner, a formal dinner held for everyone, and the dinner opened with everyone participating in Apollonese. And it was just fantastic that all these different people came together from all over and could do a polonnaise together. So these dances are rarely meaningful and have different kinds of meaning for different people. The other thing that I love to say is that mache offers classes for a wide variety, so people who don't think that they consider themselves dancers, there are classes for you that he know if you get more interested in it or you're already an experienced dancer. We have the performing group that I'm a part of, and we would love to have more men in the group. We have several men already who are fantastic dancers, and they have a lot of fun hooting and hollering. There's a lot of, as we say in Texas, there are lots of really exciting dances for the men. Women could learn those steps, too, but we would love to have more people in any of the classes or the performing group. Yeah, more merrier. I think. Everybody can dance.

Everyone can dance.

That's right. Yeah. We're always looking for dancers. Yeah. Like Carolyn said, you don't need to be experienced if you're looking for a really fun time with some really fun people. Yeah. Come by. We have two sets of classes. So I teach on Saturdays at the ukrainian school of Atlanta. There's a children's group and there's an adult group over there, and that happens in Alpharetta. And then on Sundays, we have the adult practices from 12:00 to 02:00 in Doraville at the Volga dance Academy. So, like I said, everyone is welcome. You don't need a polish background. You don't need to speak Polish. Yeah, exactly. This is really meant for anyone that's looking for to meet new people and to have fun.

That sounds wonderful. Now, I do have to have one last question, and that is, how did you choose the name for your group?

So the name really came from. I really wanted something unique. In the US, there are a lot of different groups. I mean, there's about, like 20 different polish dance groups in Chicago itself, and a lot of them are named like Polonia or Polanye, which references pretty much the first tribes of Poland and reference to Poland itself. However, in order to stay kind of relevant, kind of unique, kind know, I guess make a name for ourselves in the. Yeah. I chose to name the dancer Mazuri, which comes from the region of Mazuria in the northeast section of Poland.

Very cool. I was just like, I want to know why. I'm interested about why people name things, certain things. Well, we'll be sure to have. Oh, yes, of course.

I have one more thing to say. I just like to know upon people in terms of dancing, United States. And I was thinking about this in terms of connecting what we do with the Northeast Georgia History center and thinking about the people coming to Georgia. A lot of polish people did immigrate to cities like Chicago, so it makes sense to me that there are a lot of groups there. And I originally come from Texas, and so I'm familiar with the german and czech populations that went there and actually built a lot of dance halls in order to maintain a community center for the german culture, the czech culture. A lot of these dance halls still exist. Not so many polish immigration stories I could find with Georgia specifically. It's also a lot older as a state than Texas and Illinois. There are very vibrant communities in the Atlanta area and in Georgia of people with ancestry from Poland, from eastern Europe. And I very much enjoyed getting to know about that because very multicultural area. And sometimes in our day to day lives, we don't really get to connect with these other cultures, but they come from all over the world, and they're very vibrant. Going to an international festival is one way, like the international night market, to really step out of the bubble and reconnect with these neighbors that we have and that make up our history, which is, of course, right now and connecting the past and the present and the future altogether. Okay, I'm off on one of my idealistic jaunts, and the world hold hands and sing and dance together in perfect harmony. That's.

I kind of want to pick up on just real quick, just on that topic, know, polish migration to the US, because, of course, Georgia is really not known for its polish populations or anything, but that really dates back to initial colonial times. And because Georgia was initially a, you know. And basically, if you weren't protestant, you weren't able to live here for the most part. And the only colony that polish people were able to settle in was Maryland because that one was Queen Mary's, who was? Was. I thought that was a really interesting kind of point. But also in terms of Texas, one of my fellow colleagues, he teaches agriculture and actually polish texan history at University of Texas. And to hear him talk about this is just fascinating, the four waves of migration to. Polish migration to Texas and how they all settled along this one river, like all these polish villages, and to see which kinds of people moved there. And what they moved there for and how they helped even Texas, essentially the american army, gain independence from Mexico and help Texas become a us state with the help of polish generals is really just a fascinating topic as well. So really, that's all I had to say.

Yeah, that's mind officially about Georgia being a protestant colony. I'm going to be thinking about this.

We actually just had our founding of Georgia homeschool day, literally yesterday that Carolyn came and helped with. And we had a religion station which was led by Bennett, who is also a reverend in the Methodist church. And he talked about how, well, basically there were a lot of Methodists, a lot of Anglicans. There was also a significant jewish population. But the one religion that was not allowed, that was actually banned was catholicism because they were concerned about Spanish Florida and didn't want any of the Spanish coming over because that was like why Georgia essentially got the charter is because they were going to be a nice big buffer between Spanish Florida and the port of.

Makes sense. The classic Georgia Florida relationship anxiety.

Yes.

Wow.

It all comes together.

I learned something today and hopefully our.

Listeners learned things as well. I know, I learned so much today. Just getting to get to sit and talk to both of you. It's always amazing. I love dance. I love dance history. I've been dancing. I did ballet as a kid and some jazz and some tap. And now I do historical dance with Carolyn and Kat with Atlanta historic dance. But I just absolutely love dance. And thank you again so much for taking time out of your day to talk to us and for our listeners to get to learn about your experiences is wonderful. Do you all have any final thoughts before we close?

I think that's it for me. I really appreciate being a part of this podcast and really happy that you guys are doing this. I think it's a fantastic thing, really.

And make sure to put Machu's Facebook, the Majuri Facebook link on your website so that people can find the group and join us and have a great time.

Yes, absolutely. We'll have your links down in the podcast description so people can find you all.

That's right. Like and subscribe.

Again, thank you so much. This has been absolutely wonderful.

Of course. Thank you.

Always a pleasure. You too.

Then again is a production of the Northeast Georgia History center in Gainesville, Georgia. Our podcast is edited by Andrews Gilles. Our digital and on site program are made possible by the Ada May Ioster Education center. Please join us next week for another episode of then again.