All right.

Hello. Gigantic crowd of people. Hello, everyone. I'm so glad to have you all here. My name is Liba Beecham. I'm the director of operations at the Northeast Georgia History center all the way up in Gainesville, Georgia. So why am I here today? Well, we were very fortunate to receive an invitation from Fort Frederica to come down and do a live podcast episode with y'all. This is our first live podcast recording. Very exciting. And our podcast is called then again, and we explore a lot of different historical topics with topic experts, everything from world history to local history. And we just so happen to have two fans of our podcast listen in and learn that we have fantastic living history interpreters for James Oglethorpe and Mary Musgrove, Richard Burke and Nicole Castareno. And so I'm really thankful that we had this invitation to come share the wonderful living history interpretation from both Richard and Nicole and get to explore even more of the history you see at the Northeast Georgia History center. Our exhibits are about the region, the Northeast Georgia's history, but our educational programs go far beyond the Georgia mountains, and we are our community's resource for history education at large. And so we do portrayals of James Oglethorpe and Mary Musgrove and others that students are studying in their classrooms, and that teachers are also in need of great resources. And the core of our educational programming is living history, which I know all the folks here at Fort Federica are very familiar with. But if you are not familiar with living history, that means first person living history, you are going to be portraying that particular person or character. So today, when you saw Richard portray General Oglethorpe and Nicole as Mary Musgrove, that was first person interpretation. But if you went on the awesome tour that Jarrett gave, that would be third person interpretation. He is in the historically accurate uniform, but he's still Jarrett telling you about the history rather than being someone of the colonial era, for instance. So, as you can see from the photos we've got going on the screen, we do a lot of living history educational programs. I myself, I am our official Juliet Gordon Lowe, although I am not 60 years old, but I know quite a lot about Juliet Lowe, and so I get to dress up as her and portray her for school groups, not only in our community, but across Georgia, and certainly during the pandemic across the country when we did our virtual programs. And so at the Northeast Georgia History center, we're very fortunate to have a digital studio in house, which is why we produce a podcast. While we can do virtual programs, both Richard and Nicole are not only. This is not their only role. Richard has portrayed many characters for us, including quite treasonous characters as well. He has portrayed Benedict Arnold. I, like had it at the tip of my tongue. He's portrayed Benedict Arnold for us, and Nicole has portrayed Sakagawea for us, or Sakajawea, and, of course, Mary Musgrove and General Oglethorpe. So today, I would love to dive into a conversation with these guys about living history and how Fort Federica and the Northeast Georgia History center bring history to life through living history interpretation. So, first of all, why don't we just go around and I've introduced myself. Why don't we start with Nicole? Just give us a little introduction and your first foray into living history education.

So my name is Nicole Castorino. I've lived in Georgia for almost 20 years. Originally from Indiana. I am Lepon Apache Native American. So I love history. I like learning about the different roles. There's not a lot that we typically learn in school about Native Americans, and especially women. And I'm an actress, so I'm not a historian. I'm an actress, and I've had to learn about her. Before playing Mary Musgrove, I didn't even know who she was. I did know more about Waya, but it's been really interesting and utilizing my acting skills in a completely different way with living history.

Thanks, Nicole and Richard.

Yeah. I'm Richard Burke. I'm a lifelong georgian native. My family is actually. We've faced my family to north Georgia since about 1690, so we've been here for a while. Some of my earliest memories. My dad has this huge collection of books from on the Civil War, World War II, various other things. And when I was young, our family vacations would be touring civil war battlefields. So I got deeply immersed in the love of history from a very early age, and it's something that stuck with me pretty much all my life. So far as Oglethorpe goes, I'm essentially self taught. I've read extensively. There used to be a fellow who. He'd go around to schools and other reenactments and everything, portraying General Oglethorpe. And he and I had some very deep diving conversations, and that's proven to be quite useful to me. Like Nicole, I also love to. So, unlike her, I haven't actually made a lot of money at it.

But.

It'S in my blood.

Yeah.

And, Jared, why don't you introduce yourself for our audience who might not know you?

Yeah, absolutely. So my name is Jarrett or here at the park ranger.

Jarrett.

I'm a park ranger here at Fort Federica. Been here about six months. I've done living history at about three national park sites. This is my third one, and it's just a lot of fun being part of Fort Federica's history. It's a fort from 1736, about the most southern point of the british colonies. So on a Saturday or special events like for the oglope's birthday, I'm dressing up as a 42nd regiment of the foot soldier here to help protect the general and the colony of Georgia and, really, the british colonies here. So it's always a lot of fun shooting off muskets, firing off a cannon, or even creating canoes, cooking, any of that stuff, just to gather people's attention here at.

Federico, thanks, and I'm glad you mentioned the. Now, is it proper to say costume, or is this a uniform? How would you.

I like to say, working here? I have two costumes. I have the park ranger uniform, and then go into the alter ego, and that's being a soldier part of the 42nd Regiment foot, so I like to.

Say two uniforms, and Richard and Nicole both have their costumes as well. Historic accuracy is a really big part of living history. And so, Richard, why don't you tell us a little bit about your uniform that you have on? I think that people would love to know.

Yeah. The uniform is, for the most part, it is standard british red, which has been the uniform of the british army since about 1645 with Oliver Cromwell. You've got the cuffs and the lapels. That color could change from regiment to regiment. Royal regiments would have royal blue facings. Mine is what they called Gosling green, which is kind of a mint green, and that's the primary way where you could tell which regiment a soldier served in.

Very good. And, of course, you've got some accoutrement, some accessories to really build out the entire uniform.

Of course, I've got my baldrick here, from which my sword would hang. I'm also wearing the brass gorget, or gorgeous, if you're british. This is probably the last piece of armor from the days of knights. For a knight, this would be the piece that would protect his throat. But now it's primarily a status symbol. It's something that an officer would wear. So if you're looking for whoever is in charge, you look for the man wearing the gorge. And I'm also wearing kind of a wine red sash, which identifies me as an officer on.

I mean, I think that just speaks to how even everything that you're wearing is an opportunity for someone to learn about all the details, the symbolism. And part of that was Nicole's costume being Mary Musgrove, is that it really is a blend of her two cultures.

Yeah.

Sorry, I changed already. Yeah. I think the different tribes and different areas and different climates were very different clothing. I had different regalia, and then you guys said, no, that's not what Mary would wear. So they were able to fit me. But I think it was a mixture of the calicos and the cloth that they brought over from Europe. Still probably wearing some type of moccasin or leather tying that in. But the beaded work came from Europe, but the natives really adopted that fashion.

Yeah.

So it's a great way to immediately have a visual representation of the culture of the time period. Of course, a lot of our audiences, I'm sure, here at Frederica as well, are going to be younger audiences. And I love engaging kids in living history, and there are so many great stories about the questions that they will ask and their curiosities, and, of course, that can also be a challenge. Do we know what James Oglethorpe's favorite color was? I don't know. We could maybe have.

Yes, I would say red.

I would explore it an awful lot.

Yeah. Yeah.

Those kind of experiences also give us opportunities to learn even more. I know that in the characters I've portrayed, for instance, I remember being asked if Juliet Gordon Lowe, founder of Girl Scouts, if she liked waffles, and I could make an educated guess, knowing that she had traveled around Europe and perhaps had tried some belgian or german cuisines that would be similar to waffles today. But it's those kind of moments where every single field trip, every single program leads you on a different path. And I'm curious to know, what paths have the kids led you all on to learn more about your characters.

One of my personal favorites is. One of the first questions I was asked, is, is my hair?

Yes. Yep.

Yes. It is quite.

Very authentic. The most authentic.

Yeah.

What about you, Nicole?

They look at me pretty strangely when I say that. I had three husbands not at the same time.

Right.

And they all. So they look at me like maybe I'm some evil person.

A little suspicious there, but, of course, then what do they learn?

They learned that sickness and illness was hard to fight off in those days, and luckily, I did make it, but two of my husbands didn't, and all the children that I tried to have didn't make it.

Yeah.

And so, I mean, that just brings the point that the kids, we want to follow their curiosities wherever they lead, and that includes the tougher parts of life back then. And so, Jared, I'm curious to know about the fun questions that you've gotten from the kiddos here at Fort Federica.

Yeah.

The biggest one is when they see our hats, the tricorn, they always think we're part of the pirates.

Oh, yes.

So it's always a fun thing to say that Frederica was really after the age of pirates, and this is like wearing a baseball cap today. So it's always funny to hear them say, like, oh, there's a pirate. And then we have to go into, oh, we're actually british colonists. We're respected, all that. So that's always the fun comment we get.

I love that.

Yeah.

And so preparing for your role, of course, that takes a whole lot of research, and there's also the considerations of how are you going to portray them, their personalities and the language that you use, maybe even mannerisms that you use. And so I guess we could start with you here. As far as the third person interpretation goes for rangers here, what kind of methods of research and resources do y'all use or have even available here, perhaps even for the public to learn even more about the colonial era here in Fort Federica?

Yeah.

So one of the best resources we have is actually, we have a ton of primary resources in our library. We have the Georgia colonial records that we're able to use primary source resources to help give information to the public. If it's questions or anything like that. Or we've actually had colonial groups come in that are part of other living history groups go through our colonial records to make sure their outfits and our outfits are historically correct.

Wow.

So that's the biggest resource we have. Other things is to always make sure when people ask questions that we can update our information to be more to modern times, to make sure it's what people really want to understand. We have those answers to help them, along with our different uniforms and other such.

That's fascinating, to have primary resources from that era. So is there a particular resource or document that you want to share that sort of exemplifies how unique these are, how rare they might be, or how useful they are for research?

Yeah.

The biggest one is we have some of John Wesley's letters here between him. He was up in Savannah. Charles is down here at Federica. And then when John is here, he's sending letters over to England. Those letters have produced us, allow us to tell us some of the most more funny stories that happen at a colonial town due to fighting within the colonists. Just unfortunate events that happen in every american town. We can look at John Wesley, what he really thought of some of the people here at Federica.

Oh, we got to share one short story, a funny story of some sort. What's one that you can share with us?

Oh, yeah. I mean, the most famous one is John Wesley comes in contact with the doctor's wife, Mrs. Hawkins, here. When John arrives here to Fort Federica, Hawkins calls him into his house, and supposedly they've had other run ins in the past that went negatively. And she pulls a pistol and a pair of scissors on him and claims that she'll either have his heart or have his blood, and she is formally arrested after that. But that's one of our more favorite stories to tell. John Wesley, you know, founder of the Methodist church, pretty famous to people, at least here in Georgia and other places. It's always funny to tell that side of his life, too.

I'm sure he expected challenges, but that's pretty surprising, I would expect.

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

So, Richard, when you were diving in, in the beginning of your research with already had, you already had opportunities to learn about him and colonial life here, or was it kind of new for you?

I'd learned the basics, but diving in makes me realize just what a really interesting person he was. I get the feeling that it took him a while to really find his calling because he was pretty much an indifferent student in parliament for the first several years. He was basically a backbencher and very seldom actually got up and spoke and everything. He developed a love for the military pretty early on. And then when his best friend dies in indetters prison, that is like a laser beam to focus all of his energy, and he became just like this human tidal wave, just brushing aside everything.

In his path in learning about that particular moment. What resources did you utilize? Were there any primary sources, like sort of hearing his own voice and his letters or other writings that you could.

I haven't read any primary sources about that particular instance, but many of the letters that he wrote back to the trustees after he got to Savannah, there's one where he talks. Know, it's so great here in America. I mean, the winters are mild and the summers are cooled by these cool ocean breezes. And I'm thinking, have you been in Savannah in August?

Yeah.

Right. I don't know, trying to make it sound a little bit better, get those.

Settlers to come, maybe, but also when you had a group of like 19 jewish people who came from England first to South Carolina. They weren't really welcome there. Then they hopped over the river to Georgia. Savannah at the time was in the middle of a yellow fever epidemic, and one of these jewish settlers was a doctor who helped out tremendously battling the epidemic. And so in gratitude to the service that they provided, he gave them all properties of land, which did not sit very well with the trustees back in England.

I see. Yeah.

But Oglethorpe basically says, well, we're 3000 miles away. I'm actually the one here.

So. Tough. Yeah.

Good for Oglethorpe. You've gotten to learn a lot about him through your research. Is there anything that really surprised you or that you just weren't expecting in the research?

I kind of knew that he was sort of a my way or the highway kind of person, but it kind of surprised me that he seemed frequently to have a little trouble delegating authority.

Was he a micromanager? In a way, I think he kind of was.

I mean, he missed most of the battle of bloody marsh because he felt he needed to bring reinforcements from Frederica. So rather than sending one of his lieutenants or something back to get him while he directed the battle, he said, no, I have to do it myself.

And so I would imagine that kind of attitude informs the way that you portray Oglethorpe. How has that developed over time? Because you've been portraying Oglethorpe for years now.

I tried to bring across his supreme confidence that not only is what I am doing right, but failure just does not enter into the mean. Like I say, he missed the battle of bloody Marsha. On the other hand, he led the charge at Gully Hole Creek and personally captured one of the two spanish captains.

Oh, wow.

Well, excellent. And so, Nicole, with Mary Musgrove, like you said, you're coming from a background as an actress and you've learned the history of your own culture and everything, but coming here and learning about Mary Musgrove's two different cultures. Talk to us about, first of all, I know that you've been very inspired by Mary Musgrove and just fascinated by her. What's the takeaway after learning so much about her that, what is that inspiring thing about her? What do you admire most about her?

She was a businesswoman and an entrepreneur. And in those times when women just tended to the home and the children and the families, she was making money. She was actually being paid by Oglethorpe in Sterling. And that's pretty amazing to me. I do portray her in Chicagoea, and I definitely resonate with her more than I do. She was a very young lady, and it's amazing with her. There's such a short time period of documentation on her. And I'm learning more and more about Mary Musgrove. I just bought a biography here, but there's more detail on her, there's more written about her, so I'm looking forward to diving in more. But I just found it really unique that she was so well respected as a businesswoman. And the relationship that she had with the chief and the general, it's pretty amazing.

Yeah.

I mean, Jared, from your point of know, if Mary Musgrove was out of the picture, I mean, that would have changed quite a then. Richard, everybody feel free to chime in, but as our fort Federica representative, can you just share with our audience how invaluable Mary Musgrove was to the entire colony at this time?

Oh, yeah. I mean, settling Georgia peacefully, especially in this time period, is really rare compared to the other northern twelve colonies. And without the communication aspect of Mary Musgrove, what she was able to do to communicate with the creek and the British here, it couldn't have happened without, you know, gaining the relationship with Tommachichi, who is the chief of the Yamacra in Savannah. Building that relationship wouldn't have happened without John and Mary Musgrove. And then one of the more important things that the creek chiefs did were signing the treaty between Oglethorpe and the creek for the British to settle here on St. Simon's island. But also it committed Creek warriors to help defend the british colonies from the Spanish. And Mary Musgrove has actually helped to gather up over 100 Creek warriors to head down to St. Augustine, Florida, to attack the Spanish. And then also when the Spanish attacked here in 1742, they're here to help protect the fort. So it would either be run over by the Spanish or there would have been some sort of war that would have broken up between the British, the Creek, Yamacross, somebody without Mary Musgrove, and.

I am of diverse background. So just knowing that she was of two heritages then and now, it's funny. You still have to bridge those gaps sometimes and learn two cultures. And I think you have a broader just view of people in general.

And I think that would have been extremely valuable to her, not only as an interpreter, a translator, but she's in a way, a kind of ambassador, a diplomat, a mediator.

And her family connections made her already well respected among the creek.

Yes, and so respected among the creek, respected among the new settlers. And the colonists, I heard she was quite an excellent hostess as well. And so that also brings me to think about just her as a woman, similar to Sakagawaya. Sakagawaya was one woman among 40 ish men. And just her mere presence was a symbol or a way to communicate. We come in peace, otherwise a war party would not have a woman, or especially a young woman with a baby. And so her, Mary Musgrove's role as a woman, I wonder how that was also a great advantage to Oglethorpe. Jared, do you have anything to share on that reflection as far as her role as a woman in this?

Yeah, I mean, what we know when she was in the town, she actually honeymoons during, I believe, her second marriage here. And one of the special things is that supposedly the whole town went to her wedding. So she was really well liked here in town with that symbolism there. And so just having that presence of communication, but also kind of that people did really respect her and support her. So I think just knowing that what happened here at the town is really cool and adds to it.

Absolutely. And of course, her work as. Working as a businesswoman and negotiating quite a lot and negotiating fairly, that's also going to be a valuable skill set in mitigating arguments or especially between the men. I think that. Yeah, right. And to have a woman's presence there may have been a feminine touch, may have been really valuable, especially at that time, for these kind of negotiations. And so with the story of James Oglethorpe and Mary Musgrove, we know that they had a very close friendship. And what do we know about their friendship and their respect for one another? How do we know that they had that friendship? Is it through primary sources?

Primary sources indicate that Oglethorpe was a dinner guest at Mary's house many, many times. So that kind of tells me that their relationship was more than just professional and they actually enjoyed each other's.

Yeah, yeah.

He gave me a ring off his very finger.

That's right.

For leaving back to Europe.

Quite a symbol of friendship. But also, I think Oglethorpe surely knew Mary Musgrove's value because he was working alongside her. But 3000 miles away, over in England, the trustees did not necessarily have the same opinion.

Oh, yes. If it had been left up to the trustees, I think Georgia probably would have devolved into the old british aristocracy, would have risen almost immediately, and you would have had difficulty with the native Americans almost from the beginning because they had no clue they were 3000 miles away and no idea of what kind of people that they're dealing with here.

Yeah.

They didn't have a sense of the context, and so they couldn't really know how valuable Mary Musgrove was. Especially, I would imagine, that her, being a woman, would also take part in that, not appreciating her as much. But, Jared, what do we know about Mary Musgrove's life and General Oglethorpe's life? We know that they arrive here. Of course, General Oglethorpe arrives here. And the 1730s, Mary Musgrove had already been here, but near the end of Oglethorpe's time here, it seems like the colony was pretty successful. But we see that once the general leaves, things do change. Can you speak to, or either jump in, can you speak to. Was that simply because Oglethorpe was not there to facilitate and steward the vision?

Yeah. So, I mean, Oglethorpe leaving doesn't help the colony in any way because every time he has. Because he leaves several times in the ten years that he's here, and every time he leaves, he comes back and there's more of a mess he has to deal with. And so when he does finally leave in 1743, Savannah is definitely going through a changing period. Now, it stays a trustee colony up until the early 1750s, but there's still plenty of qualms of people wanting more land, wanting enslaved people to start this plantation life. And when Ogletlerv is here, he's spending a lot more time at Frederica, because Savannah is having just more problems, more people. And so, as he does know, Mary Musgrove gets into she's promised land, St Catherine's island and some other places, well, that never really comes to fruition, and I'd like to think is one of the reasons, because Oglethorpe leaves. And so just some of those promises made by the british government to Mary and to others don't be fulfilled. And then, five years later, the War of Jenkins year ends in 1748. Frederica starts to go away as a settlement in 1749, and that military presence that was here of Ogaflorp and other military people starts to go away, and there's less control from that british government here, which plays into the part of why Georgia changes into a plantation colony and changes the idea of what Ogilford really set out to do. So it's successful up until, I'd like to say, 1750, and then seven years after Ogilfort leaves, it kind of just unravels.

Yeah.

So it brings to mind it's something that's really remarkable in Georgia history to have had this success of a more egalitarian society, peaceful relationship with the native Americans at the time. And yet it is so short lived, unfortunately, and I'm curious, after Oglethorpe leaves, we know he lives quite a long life. Up until his late 80s, was he able to at least keep tabs or still have any kind of role, or at least did he attempt to have any kind of role to continue that vision?

I don't really think he had, like a. Well, he completely left politics.

Okay.

Yeah, but he started having these intellectuals to Lonz in his home, and he gathered some of the brightest people that he knew or that he'd heard of, and he'd just gather them together and just talk.

Sounds like a very enlightenment era party going.

Yes, I think he did try to influence things that way, and he was very much in favor of the american revolution.

That may surprise some people. Yeah, I was surprised when I learned that. Why do you think that is?

I kind of think that in spite of his privileged upbringing, he always did have a kind of like a stick it to the man mentality and that the american revolution was like the ultimate finger in the eye to the.

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. And so with Mary Musgrove's life later on, we know that, as we mentioned before, her third husband, he lived a healthier life, it seems, and that was the Reverend Thomas Bosenworth. And so being married to the Reverend Bosworth is also. I mean, Mary Musgrove already had great reputation, but that's also going to elevate her status as well. And so what do we know about Mary Musgrove's life once James Oglethorpe has left? We know that eventually she's going to get St. Catherine's island, but there's a lot of dispute over that. Jared or Nicole, if you want to chip in with what we do know about her life after James Oglethorpe leaves.

I'm not too sure after he.

I mean, after she leaves, she keeps up the trading posts and really more, concentrates her time more along the Savannah river instead of being here. Frederica, she only spends about a month here total. So really more. That's the focus. And then just doing that businesswoman type of work while she's being here. Still, I believe, still working with translating and being that person as an interpreter.

For the Methodist in particular. Now, was that before Ogilvorber? Okay, so her work with her husband.

Yes. So with Thomas Bosenworth, we worked with John Wesley, and we tried to teach the natives about the Methodism ways, and we tried to teach the Europeans about the native ways. So still trying to blend those cultures and teach each other.

It's funny, I get in the habit of saying I and we as well when I'm Juliello or Rosie the river or whoever. I'm sure that happens to you. I love when Richard will call me for a question. He's still in his James Oglethorpe accent. Very fun, but yes, yes. So she goes on in more missionary work, but still very much an interpreter and utilizing that role as a mediator. Cultural. So you know the story of Fort Frederica. I know that, Jarrett, you mentioned on your tour that this once very vibrant town, it kind of disappears. And when did the Fort Federica start? Or archaeologists start uncovering the remnants of the town? And what was the trajectory of that effort? I mean, how much effort did that really take?

Yeah, it took a lot of effort, and it really started in 1903 with the colonial Games of America. They're able to protect the King's magazine, which is right where the fort was. And then they have barracks Tower. And then 1945, they're able to give that over to the National Park Service. And then about 1940, 819, 50 is when they actually start digging up all the foundations here. And the busiest period was about 1950 to the early 1960s. That's where they created refound, Broad street, barracks Tower, and several of the King's magazine buildings. And then over the past 50 years, we've uncovered more artifacts. Currently working on the Sinclair Tavern today, which is one of the largest structures here at Fort Federica. It was a three story inn and tavern, so it's supposedly, according to our archaeologists, we've only really uncovered about 5% to 10%. So over every decade or so, we're hoping to add to our exhibits out there.

That's fantastic. And speaking of the exhibits, the museum here on site at Fort Frederica is wonderful. It's very approachable to both kids and adults, which I love. And you get to really see these awesome artifacts up close, and I love artifacts that are just everyday items of the period. So we're seeing beautiful buttons or the plates or the fork or spoon they use. When I went to the place where Mary Musgrove had stayed for a bit just to see the spoon there, did she use it? I don't know, but it's so cool to just know that these people were right here. And so I really commend Fort Federica and the rangers here and everyone, the volunteers and team for preserving and sharing its history, for inviting us down here to share our podcast and our wonderful interpreters. And I wanted to conclude Jarrett by asking, what is the main thing that you want people to take away whenever they visit Fort Federica? What do you want them to leave with?

Yeah, the biggest thing is know Fort Federica. Obviously, it's a historical area, but it's also a huge opportunity for education of archaeology. We have a great school program where we work with local schools, bring them in. We have digs set up where our first archaeologists put all of our old artifacts so kids can actually dig through and find first artifacts that were original to the site. And so we love teaching the history of the british colonial history. We also have african american history here as well. Mr. Robert Abbott, who was born here on the island, created the Chicago defender. So I think the biggest thing takeaway is know it looks like a town of a thousand people. What's left? But there's so much more of this place. And really, that's the story of a lot of colonial places and a lot of state museums, national parks. We love telling that big story. But if you can add in the two or three other things and get hands on, you can just learn so much more about just one site in particular.

Absolutely.

Well, thank you again for inviting us here. It really was such a pleasure to be here.

Yeah, thank you for coming here. We're so happy. General. We could celebrate your birthday. Mary Musgrove could come have this great opportunity.

And so if anybody has questions about living history interpretation, Fort Frederica, the Northeast Georgia History center. Any questions for our interpreters today, feel free.

You had mentioned that living history is particularly well received by.

Know. If we take a look at these photos up, know the kids, they're going to immediately be fascinated and curious about what you're wearing. I mean, even when Jarrett was talking about, they might think immediately he's a pirate. And so they're going to come up and ask questions. But the second they learn that, oh, is this is not what they were expecting, then you are engaging in their curiosity, and I think know at least, and I'm sure y'all feel the same way, that at the Northeast Georgia History center, it's really not about these kids getting the exact dates and the exact names, and it's really about planting that seed of curiosity for them to especially continue to explore on their own, because know there's going to be concepts that are just difficult for them to comprehend, obviously, but by inciting their curiosity early on. But the time they're mature enough and can really comprehend the complexities of history, the challenges it allows them to have that deeper connection, I think, and bringing the material culture, as we call it, the clothing, the tools, the equipment, it's all things they can really have an know they get to feel and interact with.

Inspired by living historians when you're know.

I actually was, when I think back, I grew up in theater, so similar to Nicole. My background is in performance and theater, and I was really fortunate to just working at a coffee shop in college, one of the directors of a local museum invited me to volunteer, and my very first role was portraying a nurse during a yellow fever epidemic, actually. And so it introduced me to the concept of wow, I can utilize these performance skills in an educational context. And that was when I really found that, oh, wow. I'm actually interested in history, because why do I love theater? It's storytelling, and that's exactly what history is.

Yeah. For me, most people that I have known throughout my life, when they complain, well, history is just so boring. It's just a bunch of names and dates. By doing this, I'm trying to give an impression that this is a real person, this is a personality here. He has his likes, he has his dislikes, he has his faults, he has the things he does really well. This is a real person, and that's one of the main things I try to get across.

Absolutely.

My wife and I'm sorry to.

Yeah, no, go for it.

My wife and I have attended an outbreak.

Yeah.

Are you different when you're dealing with an adult audience than when you have child audience? When you're thinking of yourself and your character?

I am. I try to keep my vocabulary a little bit limited so that I'm not going over their heads too much, and I try to appeal to their personalities, just try to get them to think a little bit. With younger children, you're trying to get across ideas, not just facts.

And so I think one part of that is having integrating activities. So for to they're not just coming up to Mary Musgrove and hearing her talk. They're going to her trading post, and they get to see the items and they get to make a trade with her and determine, well, how many of these deer skin am I going to need to get that musket that I want? And so it's really cool and already interesting. And so it's almost like a sneaky way to teach them because you're really entertaining the kids. But honestly, I think it's the same with an adult audience. Adults want to be entertained, too.

Yeah, I don't think it's too much different, but you do have to watch their attention span.

Oh, yes.

Determine how long you need to go or when you start letting them ask questions. And obviously you guys want more facts and to actually learn the history. And they want to know how I arrived today. Did I drive a car? Did I come in a time machine?

Yes.

Did I ride a horse? They ask really interesting questions. And in my acting career, that has probably been the most challenging to stay in character and answer some of their questions sometimes. But it's really fun.

Yeah, I think that's probably maybe the biggest difference that I've experienced. When you're in a play, you know your lines, you know your blocking, and your, you know, Richard and Nicole, they've got to change or fit the audience or mold their performance to the question. And so even questions that are difficult to answer, you have to get creative in using that as a launching point to answer some way or admit you just don't know.

Yeah.

So it's a great question, and I encourage other museums to explore living history. It is a challenge to do it well because you really have to know your information, know your research for sure. You have to have the performance and the entertainment skills to go along with that. You have to consider the costume, especially being as historically accurate as possible. So there's so many other skills and knowledge and attributes that go into living history that I think make it such a special experience when it's done really well. So we're so fortunate to have Richard and Nicole and our team of living history interpreters at the Northeast Georgia History center. And I know Fort Federica has a great team here as well of interpreters and performers, too, especially led by our.

Lead ranger, Phil officer. He's the whole, you know, we're able to dress up for a second regiment foot. One of the funnest things we do with kids here on a trip is we have so many different people that lived here at Fort Federica that we like to assign everyone a task. Like, you're the bricklayer, you're the shoemaker, you're Daniel Cannon, the carpenter. Just so they can kind of picture this is where you could have lived, or this is what you would have done, just so you can join us on our living history tour.

Oh, that's great.

Yeah, that's really using their imagination to learn, and I love that.

That's great.

Do we have any other questions?

Yes.

I was really impressed with Mary Musgrove's tenacity.

Yeah.

Not only as a businesswoman and then helping with interpreting, but the issues that she had with property, trying to hold on to property that was either given to her or that was rightfully hers. Can you speak to that at all in terms of some of your research about that?

The trustees just didn't, I don't think they had the same vision that General oglet did. And actually, that's a question I have, is you were well respected here. Were you well respected back there with having different views? You clearly had very different views than a lot of other people that came.

I kind of get the impression that his views kind of made him a pariah among the british aristocracy, and he was fine with that.

And speaking to, you know, her challenges with, I mean, it's kind of sad because she finally gets St. Catherine's island, but she maybe lives or owns it for five ish years or so late.

Into her life, and then I pass, and it goes on to my husband and his heirs because I didn't have any.

Right.

Right. That survived.

Yeah.

And so to your point, though, I mean, she was an incredibly resilient woman, having had so much tragedy affect her in her life, losing her mother early on in life, losing her father when she's only like 15 or so, losing two husbands, being married three times, losing children in their infancy. And yet a lot of wins. Yes, exactly.

For a woman, still a lot of wins. Just being paid alone, being considered an ambassador of the Georgia colony, an official translator. So lots of tragedies, but lots of wins.

Yeah, exactly.

So just a fascinating and complex life and history that we continue to learn more and more about.

I wanted to open up.

Are there any last questions for us today? All right, well, thank you again, Jared and Fort Federica in general for allowing us to come here. And thank you so much to Richard and Nicole for sharing your wonderful performances today and for all of you joining us for this live episode of. Then again, I encourage all of you to take those phones out and wherever you listen to podcasts do join us on. Then again at the Northeast Georgia History center, we have tons of fascinating episodes. We're actually approaching our 200th episode in the new year. And if you want to join us and learn even more about the Northeast Georgia History center, the fascinating artifacts that we have, our educational programs, we have our fourth annual telethon this Monday from 11:00 a.m. To 07:00 p.m. Just hop on Facebook or YouTube, look up Northeast Georgia History center. Our community expands far beyond the Georgia mountains, and so we hope that you'll also join our community and learn even more fascinating history with us. So thank you.

All right. Thank you.

Thank you.

Senegan is a production of the Northeast Georgia History center in Gainesville, Georgia. Our podcast is edited by Andrews Gilles. Our digital and on site programs are made possible by the Ada May ioster education center. Please join us next week for another episode of then again.